My creation! Well.. not created just yet

[Sly Simpleton]

Friends! Fiends! And fellow perverts! I've found you at last! Imagine discovering a place like this! Who'da thought doll lovers would even have a common meeting place? Ah yes, the internet is a wonderful place! Anyway, on to business hehe... I’ve typed up the tome of information you see before you to bring forth an idea I’ve had, and have started work on. But I know I’m marching directly uphill on this one, so I’d like to ask everyone for their help. Any advice/criticism/ridicule would be very welcome haha.

So I'm new to the whole doll thing. I don't own one, but a friend recently pointed me at the RealDoll website. It corrupted my very soul I tell ya! Fun with advanced (and expen$sive) rubber compounds? In a stylish package like this even?! But gadzooks Batman! The price tag is to die for... or for someone else to die for anyway.

It didn't take long before my freshly polluted mind was bouncing around notions of these wonderful toys. "Can I make one myself?" I pondered... “Is it possible???” With what skills I have, I'm became certain that it was. I sculpt clay into shapely feminine forms anyway, never before so large as to scale (I've been reusing the same 6lbs of clay for years! – not even close!). So before I could begin, I had to make a few decisions…

Naturally, it would be foolish to shoot for a full-body doll on my first run. I've got no experience with RTV silicone, nor would I dare experiment with large volumes of it just to learn how to use it.. This type of silicone is far too expensive to waste for my ... finite resources. So I decided to make just the pelvic region. Seems like a reasonable place to start hahaha.

So I began my quest by buying more clay (I use Klean Klay, of course -- it's wonderful stuff) and sculpted for a couple days. Besides the tremendous weight of the thing and the absolutely huge blister on my thumb, it went together pretty well; or what I have so far. I had to send for more clay while my thumb heals hehe. I also did some research into what type of silicone rubber I needed and found only one place to buy it. A site (www.artmolds.com – anyone know of other suppliers?) carries a product called SkinRite10. It's a translucent 10 Shore A RTV silicone rubber. I ordered a 1gal kit and it arrived today.

Oh boy! Cool stuff! I can't wait to work with it, but oh no! What's this? In its brief instructions, it mentions the need to vacuum out air bubbles from the silicone while it's in the pot; to at least 29" of mercury no less. Gads... Ok.. I have no apparatus capable of that, so I ordered a vacuum pump (a simple hydraulic aspirator) and I guess I get to build a vacuum chamber now. Not a problem. I'm assuming its necessary anyway... I really don't want bubbles in my silicone hehe.

I realize it would be silly to attempt to cast this whole thing with just a single gallon of silicone. And there’s definitely a need for some skeletal support within the cast. Who needs a funny-shaped jiggly jello? All I know about what the real doll makers use is that it’s metal and meant as a structural element before an anatomically accurate frame. But in the case of just a pelvis, there’s no need for most of that structural support – mostly just fill, in my case.

So I’ve decided to try for the anatomically accurate pelvis (as far as can be felt externally). It’s no easy task I’ll tell you… Not only does it have to be extremely rigid, it has to be accurate and smooth. I spent two whole days mastering the shape of the female pelvis. Now I can sculpt one from memory in an hour or less and smooth it out & even it up over another hour or so… So I feel confident about the shape and the unique structural problem of the pelvis I have to solve.

The solution? Ah! I have experience with fiberglass and carbon fiber. Certainly I can solve the problem, and I think I have. I wouldn’t dare attempt to detail my approach in-full here; especially since I haven’t actually experiment with a real frame yet, but the general idea is to use beefy carbon fiber rods wound up with carbon tows binding them together in strategic locations; taking full advantage of carbon’s incredible tensile strength.

I’ll be sculpting the pelvis to fit the cast, and adjusting the cast to better fit my new knowledge of the pelvis. I’ll take pictures of both pelvis and fleshy masters while they’re fixed to a rig so I can accurately measure and overlay the images for the best results. Don’t need any “bones” poking out of the skin or any other anomalies. After all, I’m trying to make it as close to accurate as I can… hehe

Ideally, I’d like to make the “bone material” out of some sort of dense rigid foam (urethane foams?) injected into a destroyable mold (I have little hope of making a reusable pelvis mold, tho its master may persist forever). Cover that in fiberglass or carbon cloth and epoxy it all up… should be plenty tough – tough enough for what it’s for. Maybe even too tough hehe. I’ve also considered leaving lots of loose & looped strands of chopped Kevlar tows randomly woven into the non-facial parts of the fiberglass coating so that the silicone can grip it when its poured.

Good idea? Bad idea? Any advice? I suppose that might increase the potential for air bubbles to form and prevent bonding altogether in some places heh. Maybe vacuum again after pouring the silicone? Hmm… Ah, but there’s so much more to do before I even get started on this part… Don’t even have a vacuum chamber yet

And what of silicone pigmentation? Is there a good source for pigments? I haven’t looked yet, but I know they’re out there. Also, how would one use multiple colors where needed? Is that pigmentation of the silicone or is that painted on later? It seems like it would be very hard to achieve a gradient blend w/o an airbrush, but the durability of paint-on-silicone is laughable I’d imagine. And what of the .. entry points? Haha… How are they best molded, and how are they kept from tearing so easily? Surely someone out here has an answer.

I’m hoping developments will follow as soon as more clay arrives and I prepare to make and fill the molds. I’m still in the “material sciences” phase of my silicone research; I have to experiment with it a bit before I fully understand its characteristics and some of its do’s and don’ts.. I’ve also got to create a rig to hold the carbon rods in place for the pelvis structural component. So much to do.. so little time.

Anyway, I thank you for reading down this far, and I’d thoroughly appreciate any input anyone has on the topic. If you can steer me away from disaster, PLEASE DO! Nudge me towards success with your wisdom, friends! So that we may all benefit!

Take care

[Franklin]

[Bowing]

Welcome to the inventors club!


I am putting together a list of what we have tried so far and what works and what has not worked. I would welcome your input with open arms (dolls legs, and various openings etc...)

One thing to try for the ultimate vagina ... take a piece if tinfoil a fairly large piece and wad it up in to a shaft .... the rougher the better on the outside .... lubricate with silicone out and place into a very large ceramis (or other) het resistant cup ..... pour hot melt into the cup .... let it set and as soon it has pull out the foil .....

Clean and prep surface - stuff with powder to get oil out ....

Insert your well lubed "johnson" and prepare for a VeRy WiLd ride.

Frank....

(more casting ideas cumming .... er (ahem!), coming soon!)

[vegewell]

Sly Simpleton:
Welcome to here!
you say good.
here has many kindly friends.eg:mytime...etc.
happy to you.

[Jabtko]

Sly,

Your ideas sound great. But a picture worths a thousand words. Please post some pictures of the process. Hope to see them soon. Good luck.

[Keithallen]

Greeting Sly, Welcome to the forum! It would be great to se a few shots of your creation.

[mytime]

Welcome Sly Simpleton,

Yeah dolls and the creation of dolls is great.
Although I'am trying to get a realdoll, the creation of a doll still don't let me "cold".
You've still your own wishes that aren't incorporated in the Realdoll concept.
I would like a doll that has a skeleton that is movable (not motorized, only movable) and fixable in multiple positions, can stand like a mannequin, and contains space to hide a small computer for downloading software into, to be able to put some speach software in it..., if I had time and money I think I would develop her. *all things that aren't incorporated in the realdoll concept*
Further I would make her a bit longer, e.g. 6 feet.. yes I'm a lengthy man, so would like a lengthy whom also
But the pouring of dolls, tedious! Its a lot of work to get be skilled in that technique. Wonko the Sane is another important member for you, he's developing a low budget method for building silicone dolls (no very expensive mold needed).

mytime

[Sly Simpleton]

Ah! Thanks for the warm welcome everyone. Hehe, I too would love to build a full-sized doll, but the cost is prohibitive and I'm not quite ready to advance to that level yet. I think I could easily sculpt a full-sized model tho. I've also got access to my brother's lathe/mill/drill machine to make custom metal & plastic parts.

I imagine it's really difficult to pour an entire doll all at once if you lack the equipment and experience, but building it in segments makes a ... lesser quality product. Hmm... I'll consider my options some other time; if I ever go that far.

Also, computerization is a great idea. I'm not only a crafty bastard; I'm also a programmer with some electrical knowledge. Bwahahaha! The utter perversions you could create with a little time, some money, a PDA or other off-the-shelf mini computer, a little custom software, and finally some custom hardware & electronic bits. Gads.. doesn't sound so easy now. hahaha. but no, it could be done... it HAS been done. It would be fun to attempt this tho, and retain the doll’s aesthetics.

But, of course, finances are my weakness. I only work enough to pay the bills and afford a few creature comforts; some of which are sacrificed to afford this project. Oh man! I'm jeallous of the guys who make these things regularly… I bet the manufacturing part is a lot less fun than the creative part, but who knows.. I could be wrong.

Anyway, one little update. I got more clay and started a new model. I switched from regular to extra firm Klean Klay, making my old model useless. It's worthwhile tho. The extra firmness is a must. This model is also slightly larger and more complete. I’ll probably have to buy another gallon kit of silicone now hehe. Once I get 'er a little more together, I'll post some pics. This clay is hard to work with in large amounts, and it’s especially tough to work it right out of the package; even with lots of heat.

Sooner or later I'll also have to build the 1st mold and I'll get pics of that once it’s nicely sanded. Anyone have any recommendations on types of plaster? I'd just use plaster of paris, but if there's a better product that’s not too expensive, I'd like to know about it hehe. I'm new to molds too.

Also, I can’t wait to see the list of what has been tried that Franklin mentioned. Any time projection to when you’ll have that done Franklin? Hehe. I guess I’m not in a rush. I have to re-sculpt my model before I even attempt mold making.

Take care guys!

[Wonko_the_sane]

Hi Slimpleton!

Nice avatar by the way
Mytime mentioned my project, but I have to correct him as I switched to PUR foam while making my "material research" studies. I actually build two dolls made from silicone, but not from the fine soft medical quality silicone, but some kind of silicone sealant. For some reasons I declared that try to be a major mistake. First, I could not get rid of the seams, second the material is really questionable because of some hazadous substances that are used in this kind of silicone. Although I put PUR foam into the doll, the doll was still very heavy. The silicone skin was about 5 to 10 mm thick.

Now I am using silicone for molding a mannequin and then make a cast from elastic PUR for the skin and PUR foam for the interior. The flexible silicone mold will minimize the seams and it will be easyer to apply the PUR step by step.

Unfortunately I had some very important things on my mind the past time, so I could not make much progress with my mold. But hopefully I will be able to demold the mannequin soon an make my first actual doll that stands my critizism:-)

You can see what I have done so far on my website. The url is mentioned in my signature below.

Greetings,
Wonko

[Sly Simpleton]

Of course! You're right Wonko! Silicone molds would be better for this; which would change the plan slightly... I'd have to re-master my master in plaster [I'm a poet and didn't even think I was! ] so I could sand it smooth before making the final silicone mold... but wait... Is it possible to use silicone in a silicone mold? I imagine there might be a release agent for that, but it seems risky.. The mold wouldn't be made of the same silicone tho, but I don't know enough about silicone yet to say for sure hehe.

So to re-master this clay version, I could probably use alginate instead of silicone (cheap temporary mold) and plaster-o-paris for the cast... or whatever plaster is best for this sort of thing. hehe.. The plaster has to cure and be demolded before the alginate goes bad, so it’s gotta cure quick.

You mention this PUR stuff.. It comes in foam and rubber-like versions? Hmm… I’d like to learn more about it. I’ve considered using soft dense urethane foam to fill the interior voids that don’t require the niceness of fleshy silicone rubber. Also, you say you have a skin of 5 to 10mm over this foam? I wonder how that looks…

This silicone is translucent by default and I’m certain that if you don’t add enough pigment to it, that the sub-surface scattering of light would look very unnatural (since the silicone is still somewhat translucent). With a skin-over-foam design, light can only penetrate so far before being absorbed or reflected… A much more natural appearance, if the pigments were right.

I like the idea of foam, or darker silicone, just under the surface to prevent those unnatural lighting effects, but that raises another question… Does uncured silicone bond to surfaces readily? How would you bond silicone to foam, or to a layer of already-cured silicone? Would there be a bonding agent you could apply to the cured silicone before pouring the liquid silicone to achieve a lasting bond between the two? (Did that almost sound… romantic?? hahaha)

Anyway, I'm gonna check out your website and then it's back to the clay I go. Take care.

[Wonko_the_sane]

but wait... Is it possible to use silicone in a silicone mold?

No, it isn't. But you can to what I did vice versa. Just use elastic polyurethane (PUR) for the mold, and than you can use silicone for the cast. It should be just that simple.

But I had reasons because I decidet to use a flexibe mold instead of a rigid. You would have to decide for yourself what suits you the best. Maybe, if you just want to pour liquid silicone into the mould this would result in a serious disaser, because the liquid would simply drop away where the mold is cut, if it is not sealed VERY propperly. The hydrostatic pressure is quite high.

You mention this PUR stuff.. It comes in foam and rubber-like versions?

Right. PUR is very versatile, it can have very different properties. rigid foam, flexible foam, differen cell structures. Duroplastic or elastic. And not expensive, compared to silicone or epoxide.
Disadvantage: mostly the two components are harmful, but there are formulas who minimize the danger.

Also, you say you have a skin of 5 to 10mm over this foam? I wonder how that looks?

I used a water based silicone. It took very long to cure, but the advantage was that the silicone stuck to the PUR foam. Usually you will have the problem, that the foam either will soak up the (expensive) silicone, which most likely is not what you want
If the silicone skin is already cured and you will use PUR foam for the interior, than you will have the problem, that the PUR won't stick to the silicone. Maybe there are possibilities to change that, but I didn't look for them because I didn't regard that option any more.
Anyway, I do not recommend two prototypes I did, because the quality of the silicone is too bad (tin organic substances which are really doubtful!!!)
So the techniques I develloped are not really helpful if it comes to the two component silicones.

Silicone sticks to silicone. No problem. You just would have to be sure that the surface is clean.

Greetings,
Wonko

[Sly Simpleton]

Ok, so let me get this straight.. PUR is polyurethane, right? And when I see companies talk about their "urethane foams" (e.g. a "cold foam" product I saw), they're really talking about the same thing, right?

Also, what is the best choice for making molds for silicone with? I can probably easily cast my clay model into plaster for a wet sand and final touch-up, but making a mold of my cleaned-up master that can be used with silicone is my main issue right now.

I recently purchased the silicone pigments I'll need, and I also got some silicone thinning and thickening agents. I'm also going to try a denser urethane foam for the pelvis 'bone' material. I've got 3lb/cu-ft foam, but I think it's too weak to use for this, so I ordered enough of the 10lb/cu-ft variety. Hopefully it's as tough as nails hehe.

Since I'm in no real hurry to get this thing finished, I figure I might also attempt multiple layers of silicone for better realism. I'm thinking I'll make two plaster casts of the original clay master. Then, refine one for the exterior layer and remove some of the outer layer of the other for the interior volumes. It would be nice to fill the buttocks with softened silicone, and have a slightly tougher silicone skin over that, and to have some thickened silicone in other places. I'm going to fill the useless interior space with soft urethane foam.

You mentioned that the silicone can absorb into foams. I can imagine what that would be like, and it's very undesirable. Does that happen on specific types of foams? What about closed-cell foams? And if it's a problem, what about brushing a little silicone into the foam to prevent saturation by the silicone when its cast?

Thanks again for the help guys!

[Wonko_the_sane]

Hi Sly!

PUR is polyurethane, right?

Right.

And when I see companies talk about their "urethane foams" (e.g. a "cold foam" product I saw), they're really talking about the same thing, right?

Right. Usually they heat the foam while curing. But that needs special equipment. Most people lack this equipment or it simply not possible, therefore there are formulars to let PUR cure at room temperature (cold foam).

About those silicone questions and where to get it, you better ask somone else because they know the distributors better than I do.
I don't know wheter silicone fits to polyurethane. Actually you have to be very careful to combine different materials. Silicone is made softer simply by adding silicone oil. This oil is floating in the rigid silicone structure in much the same way water does in a sponge. You know that happens, if you lay a wet sponge on a wodden surface or a newspaper...
The softening additves of plastics can diffuse into other materials if they are in contact and distroy them. (They call this "melting", "melt down" here, because the material looses his structure.)

I don't know if this is the case with PUR and Silicone. I think, if the PUR has no additives that makes it softer, it should not be a problem. But I don't know for sure.
It definitely is the case if you try to make different layers of silicone with different softness. Be sure that the silikone will diffuse everywhere within the silicone structure! If you want to accomplish this effect you would have to take care that the different degrees of softness are not accomplished by adding more or less silicone oil but because of the structure of the silicone framework itself. Hard to find out, I suppose...

You mentioned that the silicone can absorb into foams.

You are right. If there are closed cells ther won't be a problem. with an open cell structure, you have a sponge. I also would try to close the pores with a small amount and brushing several layers on top...

If I'd use silicone for the cast, I would integrate a grid/web. Flexible but strong and not too narrow meshes. If the silicone would get a tear one day, the tear will be stopped at that grid and so you can prevent a mayor damage and repair it more easyly. Most likely tears woud not occur in the first place. If the grid is not strechable, you should also be aware that the silicone layer can not be streched aswell. One could use a strechable grid out of stronger silicone...

Greetings,
Wonko

[Sly Simpleton]

Thanks for lending me your sanity Wonko! Ok, so the PUR thing is solved and I'm guessing the soft urethane foams have an open cell structure. I imagine most of those foams are like what you'd find in car seats where they compress easily (meaning the cells must be open)... so it probably would require a special coat of silicone first.

Yeah... This 'meltdown' effect sounds the same as when materials start to 'sweat' out their components (same thing). Like some old plastics or rubbers tend to do that.. Their softeners start to ooze out leaving behind the original rubber which becomes brittle and will easily crack if flexed. Would softened silicone do that before several years?

So adding silicone oil to silicone will soften it, eh? That's basically what the softener is then is just silicone oil? hmm.. ok.. I'm not quite sure what you're saying about the layers tho. Is it bad to soften up some silicone, pour it and let it cure, then pour some unsoftened silicone over that? Why? Will the two silicone layers bond? Or does the silicone oil tamper with the bond? Or is it possible that the softened silicone might sweat out the silicone softener and it would build up between the two layers? hehe -- that'd require surgery to repair properly.

Actually, a while back I was making some fun little high-voltage electrical experiments and I used some silicone adhesive for insulation. It worked great & all, but I wanted it to not adhere to one thing... So I tried to come up with a cheap release agent. I knew less then than I do now about silicone, so I tried silicone oil as a release agent... hehe oops.. Instead of making it easier to release the bond, it made the bond stronger hehe. Would the same thing happen in a silicone-to-silicone bond??

hehe. I want this to be a work of art and cleaver craftsmanship more than a 'quick fix', so I'm willing to do whatever it takes and spend as much time as need be. Perhaps giving the softened silicone a week or two to cure and sweat would be advisable before pouring the skin layer? Is two weeks enough time you think? It would be a tragedy if the doll's silicone layers just separated hehehe.

Also, you mention a grid or web of reinforcements. I was planning to do this where it would be most important (entry points). I'm going to use Kevlar for that. It's flexible and light in color. Carbon fiber would be laughably bad for this since carbon isn't abrasion resistant. Kevlar should be perfect for this since it's highly resistant to abrasion (and thus repetitive motion), tho something more elastic could be better. Imagine squeezing an ass cheek and seeing, or even feeling, the tension of the Kevlar reinforcements as they resist deformation.

Just as a recap, my plan is to work from the pelvis outward. Here's what I've thought of so far: Construct the pelvis out of a rigid pre-tensioned carbon-fiber rods and tows. Place that inside of the pelvis mold and cast the pelvis out of dense PUR foam. For extra strength, run carbon tows along the exterior of the pelvis where the greatest potential for carbon frame flex is. After that, I want to coat the pelvis in fiberglass & epoxy that all down. I want to add some tough silicone adhesive (pasted on & trimmed after cure) to the parts of the pelvis that are close to the surface of the skin (mainly the pubic crest, iliac crest & anterior spine, parts of the back side, etc.)

The final pelvis should fit the shape I've specified (including carbon reinforcements and fiberglass coating). It should also be fairly airtight after being epoxied to death. I've thought it might be nice to weave smaller Kevlar tows thru the fiberglass before it gets epoxied down so that there are loops of Kevlar hanging out all over the pelvis (in strategic locations and with strategic lengths).

I’m thinking it’ll be necessary to create a “sock” out of Kevlar fabric with maybe every-other tow removed (or more) so that the silicone has no problem with it. I’ll probably have to make it an ‘S’-shaped sock with the open ends of the ‘S’ sewn shut to form two pockets for the two entry points. The sock shall be fit flush to the pelvis at the inferior pubic ramus (the bones that run between your legs to the bony protrusions in your butt. I’m sure the sock will have to be held in place (and open) by a few Kevlar tows so that the entry point templates can be fixed into place w/o touching the Kevlar.

Then, I want to fill the dead spaces with PUR foam. That includes the legs and most of the lower abdomen. I might have to seal up the foam (if it’s open-celled) after it cures. After all that, I want to cast the buttocks and maybe parts of the lower interior out of softened silicone. Not the WHOLE buttocks tho, just the interior part so I can add a tougher skin later. The same goes for the pubic area, tho I might cast this out of ordinary silicone so I don’t have problems with sweating or overly weak areas.

Also, I’m thinking that all the silicone on the interior should be colored a bit darker to prevent that unsightly sub-surface illumination effect I dislike so much hehe. So up to this point, if everything goes to plan, I should have a fairly dark-colored pelvis shape with a lot of its spaces filled in and even parts of the legs & whatnot. That whole thing will be placed in its final mold and the final skin layer gets cast over everything. Again, I’ll have to add the two entry port templates (slightly different versions from the other ones) to prevent those good ‘ol holes from filling in.

I’m hoping that the templates used for the interior will create the necessary cavities and the exterior templates create aesthetic entry points. I really don’t find gaping-wide holes very attractive hahahaha. So I’ll take care not to do that. I’ll also have to be careful to make the templates not have any sharp or pointy edges as those would promote tearing I imagine. Hopefully any tears that do start there would be stopped by the ‘sock’…

Kevlar is too tough to use around the entry points themselves, so I figure maybe elastic bands instead. They won’t tear as easily as silicone, but they have great elastic properties. Might also retain the ‘tightness’ of the doll better, but I doubt that goes away over time anyway.

As for my current progress, I’m still modeling the clay. This is above and beyond the largest thing I’ve ever sculpted, so it’s tricky on the old mind’s eye, but it’s coming along. I’m starting to photograph it to refine its symmetry, and I’ve made a few major alterations to it over time, but it’s coming along. Once it’s done, I’ll make the plaster casts of it (the exterior and interior versions for multi-layering). Oh boy! Can’t wait!
Thanks for your help Wonko and everyone else! Please let me know if there’s any critical mistakes I’d be making in the plan I’ve described above, or if you have any other advice or whatnot. It’s always welcome!

[RichWV]

Ordinary paste wax is a decent mould release agent for silicone.

Elastic bands would be a poor choice. AFAIK they're all made of plain rubber and deteriorate fairly quickly.

OTOH O-rings can be had in silicone or other more durable rubber like Viton or EPDM.

Rich