Diagram of WM doll skeleton

Dutch_Husband · Post by **Dutch_Husband** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:29 pm

Not sure if necroing an old thread or posting a new one is better, so I'll start here as it is most "on-topic".

I am looking for information on the WM 168 skeleton. There a tons of photos available, but I am more interested in the best way to access the joints. Since the joints seem to have the nut tack-welded, you would want to access the side with the bolt so as not to cut into an area only to find you should have been on the other side!

So the photos are great, but I was thinking more of a diagram, or even a spreadsheet listing the joint, direction of access (front, back, outside, inside, armpit, groin, lower back, etc.), and what size bolt (13mm hex nut, allen screw, etc.).

With that information, tightening a loose joint, or reattaching a nut, could be a little more straight-forward. Like the old Carpenter's Adage "measure twice, cut once".

Also, with the manufacturer's working to improve their product, periodic updates would be needed. It would be nice to have a certain section (maybe in Repairs & Maintenance, or by manufacturer) for reference. That way owners of older dolls could access their model, as easily as new doll owners. Many TDF members are working on a specs database for weights and measures, maybe this is something that can be added or linked to as well.

In the meantime, anyone with current information like I am seeking, I would appreciate it very much. TIA.

DH

The Messenger · Post by **The Messenger** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:08 pm

Have you seen this post?
https://www.dollforum.com/forum/viewtop ... 6&t=109122

Stepford_CT · Post by **Stepford_CT** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:50 pm

Dutch_Husband wrote:Not sure if necroing an old thread or posting a new one is better, so I'll start here as it is most "on-topic".

I am looking for information on the WM 168 skeleton. There a tons of photos available, but I am more interested in the best way to access the joints. Since the joints seem to have the nut tack-welded, you would want to access the side with the bolt so as not to cut into an area only to find you should have been on the other side!

So the photos are great, but I was thinking more of a diagram, or even a spreadsheet listing the joint, direction of access (front, back, outside, inside, armpit, groin, lower back, etc.), and what size bolt (13mm hex nut, allen screw, etc.).

With that information, tightening a loose joint, or reattaching a nut, could be a little more straight-forward. Like the old Carpenter's Adage "measure twice, cut once".

Also, with the manufacturer's working to improve their product, periodic updates would be needed. It would be nice to have a certain section (maybe in Repairs & Maintenance, or by manufacturer) for reference. That way owners of older dolls could access their model, as easily as new doll owners. Many TDF members are working on a specs database for weights and measures, maybe this is something that can be added or linked to as well.

In the meantime, anyone with current information like I am seeking, I would appreciate it very much. TIA.

DH

The nut that tightens'loosens is to the INSIDE, not the outside. The least invasive way to access it is through the anus. The part of the u-joint assembly that is to the outside (closest to the skin) only has the bolt assembly that tightens'loosens the leg movement.

I have spent 15 months trying to get the replaced u-joint to stay tightened on the inside. I've tried everything from thread lock (which will not dry because of the internal moisture) to JB Weld which also will not dry for the same reason. I've tried locking nuts, lock washers, and double nuts. However, when the leg rotates upward, it loosens the nut. And no, there's no way to spot weld the nut to the bolt. Trust me on that.

This is exactly why my next doll will be a 6YE doll because their skeleton is a ball joint design.

Dutch_Husband · Post by **Dutch_Husband** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:02 pm

The Messenger wrote:Have you seen this post?
https://www.dollforum.com/forum/viewtop ... 6&t=109122

Actually, that is one I missed. Thanks TF.

I knew Grim had posted photos of a different model, as it had the goose neck at the top. The post you quoted seems to have more close-up shots to help answer those questions.

I don't have any repair issues yet, just some joints loosening to a point where they barely hold a pose. Left shoulder, right hip and right knee. I want to know what I'm getting into when the time comes and I must do surgery.

grimreefer24601 · Post by **grimreefer24601** » Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:36 pm

Depends on the Joint. Some are welded.

My WM 140 skeleton should be similar to yours. I have a hinged neck on my Skeleton.

: 20190225_172111.jpg (1.04 MiB) Viewed 1075 times

: 20190225_172128.jpg (982.73 KiB) Viewed 1075 times

: 20190225_172143.jpg (701.28 KiB) Viewed 1075 times

: 20190225_172157.jpg (686.9 KiB) Viewed 1075 times

Likely all welded. That will be your toughest issue beside sealing the cut.

Dutch_Husband · Post by **Dutch_Husband** » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:08 pm

Thanks Grim!

In the photos, is there a way to tell if I am looking at the front or back of the skeleton? Maybe some feature of the skeleton that serves as a landmark or something?

grimreefer24601 · Post by **grimreefer24601** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:39 pm

These joints not really. You could assume that every skeleton is similar in bolt direction.

First picture is left shoulder front.
Second Pic Right Hip Front Side Joint.
Third pic right hip inside forward joint.
Fourth pic inside knee joint.

Dutch_Husband · Post by **Dutch_Husband** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:11 pm

If we assume the WM skeleton's are similar, would it be safe to say the welds will be front or inside, so to tighten you need to access back or outside? Or do I have that backwards?

I realize they could be different, just trying to get a general idea.

Thanks!

grimreefer24601 · Post by **grimreefer24601** » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:07 pm

Unfortunately not. Here's a picture from Jinsan showing the same skeleton. Bolts face different directions.

: IMG_20171007_104102.jpg (929.18 KiB) Viewed 1022 times

: 20190225_172111.jpg (1.04 MiB) Viewed 1022 times

Stepford_CT · Post by **Stepford_CT** » Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:28 pm

Dutch_Husband wrote:If we assume the WM skeleton's are similar, would it be safe to say the welds will be front or inside, so to tighten you need to access back or outside? Or do I have that backwards?

I realize they could be different, just trying to get a general idea.

Thanks!

How do you intend to tighten a WELDED bolt/nut?? The bolt is welded to the u-bracket. The nut is welded to the bolt shaft. The mere fact that it's welded prevents it from coming loose or being tightened. It's not moving.

Stepford_CT · Post by **Stepford_CT** » Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:30 pm

Dutch_Husband wrote:Thanks Grim!

In the photos, is there a way to tell if I am looking at the front or back of the skeleton? Maybe some feature of the skeleton that serves as a landmark or something?

The skeleton looks the same from front and back.

Stepford_CT · Post by **Stepford_CT** » Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:33 pm

grimreefer24601 wrote:Unfortunately not. Here's a picture from Jinsan showing the same skeleton. Bolts face different directions.

IMG_20171007_104102.jpg

20190225_172111.jpg

Precisely why my next doll will be a 6YE. Ball joints are MUCH less complicated and less prone to failure.

There's no way in hell I'd buy another WM doll or any doll with this type of skeleton because of the 15 month hassle (and ongoing) I've had trying to keep my doll's replaced u-joint tight.

Dutch_Husband · Post by **Dutch_Husband** » Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:36 pm

How do you intend to tighten a WELDED bolt/nut?? The bolt is welded to the u-bracket. The nut is welded to the bolt shaft. The mere fact that it's welded prevents it from coming loose or being tightened. It's not moving.

I did not realize both ends were welded. It was my understanding that the nut was welded to keep it from falling off, but you could still tighten the bolt. Now that I look closer at the photos, I see what you mean... the nut is welded to the bolt, not to the bracket.

That would mean you cannot tighten a loose joint, except by cutting the weld. Whose great idea was that?

I'm glad I asked lots of questions before cutting!

Precisely why my next doll will be a 6YE. Ball joints are MUCH less complicated and less prone to failure.

Do the ball joints never get loose? It would seem that eventually they would, just from wear & tear, and no way to tighten them since there is no bolt/nut involved.

I appreciate all the input on this! Thanks.

grimreefer24601 · Post by **grimreefer24601** » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:17 am

Ball joint get loose too DH. And yes, how do you tighten them? I can cut off welds with my dremmel. It is at least possible.

BWheeler1 · Post by **BWheeler1** » Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:28 am

Thinking from a mechanic/fabricator point of view, I wouldn't Dremel it with TPE anywhere nearby. The sparks would melt the TPE, as would the metal when it heats up from the friction. At the very least, you'll have metal dust now burned into the TPE that you will not get out because they were hot when they flew into it. I've used grinders and dremels and had sparks melt into nearby glass and cause bumps. Any grinding you do near TPE will cause more damage than any loose joints. If the bolt and nut are welded together, but not welded to the joint, then the way to go is to use a hot knife to put a very small slice in each side, one at the bolt head and one at the nut. I always use a hot butter knife, and the slice would only have to be the width of the blade, no more. The TPE will stretch to where you need it. Then, put a socket on each side, one on the bolt head and one on the nut, and crank them to loosen. You will either break the weld or the bolt, guaranteed they don't use grade 5 or 8 bolts on these joints, they're softer than that. Either way, now you simply replace the bolt and nut. Once you're done, heat the knife back up, separate the incision, stick the knife inside and close the incision while sliding the knife out.

For whoever mentioned welding on a doll skeleton, you need to keep in mind that a MIG welder arc is about 3,000 to 20,000 degrees. It is hot enough to turn steel to liquid instantly. The arc is so bright it will give you "sunburn". It will heat up the steel for a few inches in either direction enough that you won't be able to handle it without gloves. Now imagine what would happen to TPE with such a low melting point. You would not only vaporize the TPE in a very large area, but what was left would ignite and burn like an old tire.