Silicone and other doll making "stuff".

[Crazyhorse]

Well, it certainly sounds good in theory. Hopefully, it will work out that smoothly in practice!

It does sound good in theory, but I'm honestly just trying to save you some grief when I tell you as a professional it absolutely will not work like that. you will most definitely have undercuts on one side or the other (probably both), and end up with a model locked inside a block of plaster. If you're really set on a plaster mold, the way I've described above is undoubtedly the simplest, cheapest way that might actually work.

I really don't mean this to sound harsh, I'm trying to help you realize your vision and save you a lot of disapointment. Even for a very simple shape like a sphere or an egg, it would be very difficult to get the object sunk in perfectly to the halfway mark, and a vaguely smooth surface on the plaster along the edges that wont chip off later (try it and see.) With a shape as complex as a figure, even a basic one, there's just no way. And then there's the trouble with air bubbles. I really am sorry but if you're serious about this, buy a book or video, do it as much like the pros as you can, and with some practice you can get the results you want.

Best of luck.

[technoguy]

Crazyhorse...

I do appreciate all of the advice you are giving me and I am taking it all in and considering it. However, I like, whenever possible, to try to keep things as simple and inexpensive as I can. I'm sure that my "simple" approach will encounter a LOT of problems along the way. But, that can be part of my "learning curve" with this new form of artwork.

I think the biggest problem will be finding a doll of the correct size (only 1 foot, maybe a bit less), correct posture, correct age, and a non-stick baking pan to hold the mold.

A bit of cracking of the inner edges of the mold is probably acceptable. I can then just manually cut off an excess material that forms on the finished doll along the seams where the mold pieces joined together.

A far bigger problem will be finding a doll whose arms lay, more or less, out sideways from her body and in the plane of the torso. This would seem to be mandatory if I am not going the have those undercuts you mention that would prevent the doll model's arms from being extracted from the lower mold piece. Producing an effective mold can require a very precise study of the topological features of a complex 3D shape. I might even be forced to remove the dolls arms, cast them separately, and then cement them back on the torso. But, I would prefer not to do this if possible. I would like to make these mini dolls with a single "pour", if at all possible.

Well, I'll have to look around a see what kind of used dolls I can find. Maybe a used Barbie doll would do the trick. Yes, I think those arms will be the biggest problem. The legs will probably be okay. Boobs I think will work out IF they are add on enhancements made of clay attached to the originial doll model's torso.

Well, I still have not had a chance to go through all of the links I've collected. I will be also paying atttention to any suppliers of a flesh colored latex that can cure at room temperture. I think latex, in certain applications, might be superior to silicone because the color on it can more opaque.

Unfortunately, some people are allergic to latex, so if I made the mini dolls from this material, I would have to give them a warning not to buy one if they are allegic.


technoguy

[Crazyhorse]

I do appreciate all of the advice you are giving me and I am taking it all in and considering it. However, I like, whenever possible, to try to keep things as simple and inexpensive as I can. I'm sure that my "simple" approach will encounter a LOT of problems along the way. But, that can be part of my "learning curve" with this new form of artwork.

Well I suppose you must think that I (and hundreds of other people) haven't tried this before, or maybe we didn't do it "right" and you can make it work despite all the things I've told you about it... but you're wrong. If you can only learn from your mistakes and not those of generations of other people, I guess thats understandable. But the truth is the "simplest" way to do anything, is always doing it the right way the first time and not trying to reinvent the wheel for no reason. I really don't understand what you think is so much more difficult about building a clay wall around something and pouring plaster over it, but whatever.

.

I must say that I am now seriously considering making my mini dolls from LATEX instead of silicone polymer!

I'm starting to feel like I'm wasting my breath (keystrokes?) here, but I'll try to help one more time - You do understand that latex can't be used for solid castings, right? Its for making skins, like masks.... the monstermakers folks assume you know this. Its poured into a mold, left to sit for a little while, then almost all of it is poured back out again. It dries only on contact with air, or by moisture being drawn out by a plaster mold, and only up to maybe 1/4 - 1/2 inch thick. If you fill your mold with it and just leave it, the inside will never, ever dry or cure... it will stay a liquidy goopy mess. I'm sure you'll probably just ignore me on this too, but thats ok at least you can't say nobody told you.

[Perry]

http://www.softglasseyes.com/colors.html

Google "doll eyes"

[Perry]

I apologize for not reading the whole thread before posting,

but, do and of this company's products look useful????

http://www.smooth-on.com

Maybe the Flex-Foam-It??

[Crazyhorse]

.........

[Crazyhorse]

Maybe I should be considering some sort of skin forming latex foam that could be placed into the mold.

Foam latex is high-end stuff, expensive and tricky to mix/inject, needs a ventilated oven for cooking it etc. Thats why I said the best option was the self-skinning polyfoam I showed you to start with. Cheap and perfect for the job.

but, do and of this company's products look useful????

http://www.smooth-on.com

Maybe the Flex-Foam-It??

Um, yeah... thats why I endorsed them and linked to their site in my first post in this thread.

[technoguy]

Thanks Perry and Crazyhorse...

It's amazing the technical problems that have to be overcome to just make a 12 inch tall doll! It can really make one admire a company that tries to mass produce a lifesize version.

Well, I still have not given up completely on the idea of using Latex. Although MonsterMakers has not answered my email yet, I expect I'll hear from them in a day or so.

Now I'm thinking that, even if the Latex can only form a "skin" inside my doll mold, then this might still be usuable.

Suppose I make my plaster mold and pour the flesh colored liquid latex into the mold. After a while I pour out the excess unvulcanized latex and when I open the mold, I should then have a nice doll shaped bladder-like thing.

Maybe I could then fill the doll/bladder with water and seal the water into the doll by crimping and cementing shut the pouring channel on top of the the doll's head. The result would be a doll with some weight to it that would have a squooshy, life like feel to it. The entire doll could be emerged in hot water to heat it up for an even further realistic body temperature. In essence, the doll would be a sort of mini hot water bottle, but one in which the water was permanently sealed in. Hopefully, continual use of the doll would not cause it to develop a leak and "go flat".

Well, these are all ideas I am kicking around. I find myself drawn to using Latex as a material because of its relatively cheap price per pint compared to silicone.

There are several flea markets coming up in a few weeks and I will probably be able to find an appropriate doll at one of them. Now I have to figure out some cover story to use in case someone asks me why I am buying old discarded dolls....

technoguy

[mytime]

Hi all,

I read all this dollmakers stuff, didn't look at this thread for a long time.
Found a great resource for Dutch people on this, I think.
This is this store:
http://www.formx.nl/
(look their instructions->Dutch instructie)
The shop:
http://www.formx.nl/Shop/assets/s2dmain ... 7a13a0ab1/

Mytime & Helen

[femdoll]

Yep found them also.... have a European site also www.formx.eu, which is in English
(instruction are all clips from SmoothOn, so you could just go to the Smoothon website...)

Advantage for me is that their shop just around the corner from here (Amsterdam). I'm thinking of experimenting a bit with Ecoflex and Dragonskin.... Only problem can be what they call 'de-gassing' with a vacuum machine... How do guys here deal with that?? I read all kind of 'horror' stories about DYI vacuum devices... explosions and so on...
Is it necessary to degass silicone?

Btw, Smoothon has some really helpfull info about all these sorts of silicone
http://www.smoothon.com/specialfx.htm
http://www.smoothonsecure.com/store/howto_service.php

I also found some nice demonstration videos on Emule from Mark Alfrey. 1 video demonstrates how to make a human head (which is an awesome video), and another 'Prosthetic Make-Up For Beginners' which show in detail the process of lifecasting, molding and other stuff needed to make a realistic human mask.
If people are interested, I can put it on sendspace or something like it...

[Crazyhorse]

Is it necessary to degass silicone?

Only if you don't want little craters all over the surface of your doll. I know, it sucks... its a pretty expensive piece of kit, but not much more than wasting a few gallons of silicone trying to do without. One way around it is to mix the rubber very very thin, almost like water, so the bubbles can escape more easily, and vibrate the mold so they come to the surface. Unfortunately thinning the silicone this much makes it very weak, and the resulting doll probably wouldn't last long.

Making your own chamber should be pretty straightforward so you can save a few bucks on that but there's no getting around the need for a strong pump. It needs to be able to pull at least 20 inches of mercury. Hand pumps and "Venturi" pumps won't work, although they can supposedly reach full vacuum. If you do find an inexpensive source for vacuum pumps, please let me know I'm going to need one soon too. Ebay seems like the best bet but its a bit of a gamble.

[femdoll]

Is it also possible to 'paint' the first layer onto/into the mold while it's still open? I've seen a video where they put a first layer of silicone with a brush, just to reduce airbubbles... (ok, they where making a molding cast of silicone rubber, so in a sence the other way around.. ). Brushing a thin layer would reduce or remove airbubbles...
or is this to tricky to do?

I've seen a small instruction on that Dutch site where they recreated a women's head (from a lifecasting, or claymodel). they used a mold (made from a clay model) which they filled with layers of Dragon skin, closed the mold, let it probably dry, and filled it with FlexFoamIII. That way you have a Dragonskin skin with cheaper foam...
Pic on
http://www.dollforum.com/modules/copper ... asting.jpg (text in Dutch, sorry...)
Only thing is that they probably just used it for 'real life' copy, not to be used as so many sextoys are used. I don't know how well Dragonskin will 'stick' to FlexFoam (will it rinkle, just like all those cheaper dolls)....
Perhaps you could make the layer of Dragonskin thicker, around 1cm, but then you need a negative inlay, which is ofcourse smaller then the original, so difficult to make... hm... ofcourse, that doesn't have to be exactly the same model.... hm.....

Exciting thing with that Dragonskin is that you can use a substance called 'slacker', which makes Dragonskin and Ecoflex weaker, more gelly like, which could make real good feeling titties, and the good thing is, it is still the same material so it will probably stick to the outerlayer... I see that the guy behind Cassiedoll used a construction like this, but he used Ecoflex as the main substance (he mentioned though that he used Ecoflex with slacker to even more soften the inner core, which is a bit weird to me, because it would make the the doll extreme soft and wobbly).
Curious if he also degassed the silicone..... Btw, what is better to use? Dragonskin or Ecoflex (which comes in different 'hardness')? I see that Ecoflex can 'release' some mineral oil... and seems 'softer', more 'skinlike' then Dragonskin... but both are the same 'stuff'.... Prices are the same....

How to make a construction work like that... haven't got a clue yet, but it's funny to see that you can buy such stuff, and just simply mix it 1:1, pour it... and ... tada... Ok, you still need something to pour it in, but....
You can even paint it with the a product called Psycho Paint, which in a sence is the same material, only in color (so it will just 'stick' to the silicon) How my airbrush will react on that , and how to clean it... don't know yet....

1 thing I already saw is that it takes a lot of planning.
A well, I still need to start at the basis... making a clay model.... I only did try out 1 'head', and that only at 'barbie' size....
perhaps I just try to 'copy' my Fleshlight.... just to see how this stuff works....

[tjc]

I reference to the vacuum pump post any air compressor pump can be made to work all you need to do is change the hose ti the intake side. This is used by people to pull vacuum on vehicle AC units. About three years ago moat restaurant had compressor pumps on there drink dispensers and there are a lot of them sitting in storage buildings that have a ½ Hp motor on them and will pull around 150 to 200 PSI and if you can find one at a restaurant you can get them form $10.00 to $50,00

[Crazyhorse]

Is it also possible to 'paint' the first layer onto/into the mold while it's still open? I've seen a video where they put a first layer of silicone with a brush, just to reduce airbubbles... (ok, they where making a molding cast of silicone rubber, so in a sence the other way around.. ). Brushing a thin layer would reduce or remove airbubbles...
or is this to tricky to do?

I've seen a small instruction on that Dutch site where they recreated a women's head (from a lifecasting, or claymodel). they used a mold (made from a clay model) which they filled with layers of Dragon skin, closed the mold, let it probably dry, and filled it with FlexFoamIII. That way you have a Dragonskin skin with cheaper foam...

Yes this approach is certainly possible, I think 1st PC dolls may be made in a similar way. Generally you'd need to add a thixotropic (thickener) to the silicone mix that will help it cling to vertical surfaces. The big problem with this method is once you get the two halves of the mold skinned, and they've set enough to stay in place when you close the mold, how are you going to get a good bond between the two halves of the skin? There are several possibilities like adding glue or fresh silicone to the edges at the last minute before closing the mold, but this results in very weak (and usually ugly) seams, compared to a poured skin. For something like a prop that is treated gently (like the lifecast) its not always a problem but with all the stresses that a sex doll has to be able to tolerate, I don't think its really practical. The result would probably have to be considered pretty temporary. Of course if you don't mind making a new one for yourself every few months, maybe its worth experimenting with.

Only thing is that they probably just used it for 'real life' copy, not to be used as so many sextoys are used. I don't know how well Dragonskin will 'stick' to FlexFoam (will it rinkle, just like all those cheaper dolls)....
Perhaps you could make the layer of Dragonskin thicker, around 1cm, but then you need a negative inlay, which is ofcourse smaller then the original, so difficult to make... hm... ofcourse, that doesn't have to be exactly the same model.... hm.....

One of the fundamental things about silicone is that nothing sticks to it, except more silicone. So no its not going to stick to any kind of foam. But if the skin is thick enough (1/2"-3/4"), it shouldn't wrinkle like an Erie or Taffy.

Typically the way you get the smaller model to make the mold for the foam core, is to temporarily line the skin mold with a layer of clay the same thickness you want the skin, close it up and fill the void left in the center with rigid foam (or whatever).

Exciting thing with that Dragonskin is that you can use a substance called 'slacker', which makes Dragonskin and Ecoflex weaker, more gelly like, which could make real good feeling titties, and the good thing is, it is still the same material so it will probably stick to the outerlayer... I see that the guy behind Cassiedoll used a construction like this, but he used Ecoflex as the main substance (he mentioned though that he used Ecoflex with slacker to even more soften the inner core, which is a bit weird to me, because it would make the the doll extreme soft and wobbly).

True, but if people had no bones they'd be extremely soft and wobbly too. The Cassi doll has a skeleton to solve this problem, just like an RG. If you want a doll that bends in the right places and doesn't just flop and fold, its got to have one, whether its "poseable" like an RD or loose like MD and some of the high-end japanese models.

Curious if he also degassed the silicone..... Btw, what is better to use? Dragonskin or Ecoflex (which comes in different 'hardness')? I see that Ecoflex can 'release' some mineral oil... and seems 'softer', more 'skinlike' then Dragonskin... but both are the same 'stuff'.... Prices are the same....

I would bet money Slade does vacuum his silicone. The quality of the skin on his prototype was very high, you can tell he's a pro just by looking at how clean the seams are (if you can find them at all). He doesn't strike me as the sort to cut corners or compromise on quality just to save a few bucks. Personally I've never tried eco-flex, I like dragonskin enough that I just go with it by default when working on something that calls for it. As you say the prices are about the same, and its basically the same stuff. And DS can be softened the same way, whether they advertise it or not. But I'll probably try experimenting with the ecoflex a bit when my doll project gets to that point, to see how its different.

Good luck, hope something here helps.

[Tbuilder]

I've got both dragonskin and ecoflex 10 here at the house. The ecoflex is very, very , very soft, stretchy but it will also "mark" pretty easy fingernails are a no-no when working with it. Dragonskin is harder, less stretchy
(don't think Im telling you guys anything new though)

for what Im working with the eco-flex is a good starting point, but Im sure DS could be made just as soft with slacker added.

Smooth-on will send you a sample pack of cured silicones to check out which will work best for your app.