Re: NOTICE to all members of TDF regarding counterfeit dolls

haremlover · Post by **haremlover** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:16 pm

Edit by TDF_Management: this discussion thread was separated from our notice on counterfeit dolls, see viewtopic.php?t=160681
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This is particularly important. Buying dolls cheap on some website where the supply chain is not authenticated and discriminating against such dolls might appear to be a matter of commercial protectionism, but it works both ways to everyone's benefit for TDF to adopt such a policy.

It's not just a matter of protection of legal rights and intellectual property, for which some who enjoy the challenge of the cheap off the back of a lorry might not have full regard, but more.

In the first case, we're seeing a lot of new developments in the doll world coming forward and this is very much to the benefit of doll enthusiasts. These developments are in materials, soft breasts for TPE, new silicone dolls and silicone materials, and skeletons, as well as superior finishing of silicone dolls. There has to be reward for investment and without which the path to improvement doesn't happen. Some manufacturers are being adventurous and it's not easy to be getting it right first time. As a result early new models might have to be replaced at the manufacturers' costs - this costs money which has to be funded. If the profitability of the well run businesses is being ebbed away by fakes stealing the market, then the profit base from which to fund customer service isn't there.

One or two companies have been very parsimonious in replacing defective dolls. Replacing such dolls costs, and TDF can only armtwist such companies in the Dispute Resolution Process if there is reason for better run businesses to value TDF as the trade-organisation working in everyone's interests.

And finally, people buying fakes don't always know what a decent doll should be like. As a result, the reputation of a poor experience can blemish the reputation of dolls on a wider basis. Likewise, buying a fake might be a total waste of money. Sometimes people have good experiences as one thread on TDF demonstrates, but in the light of the above, they are still at the cost of the wider interests of the doll community in terms of product development, quality control and customer service of the good businesses that the fakes rob from. If the fake is a waste of money, then it's a loss and Daisy Ashford's quote https://www.nypl.org/blog/2009/05/26/young-visiters

half a loaf is better than no bread

might not be seen to be an opinion in the height of maturity.

Another thread might well be the place for anyone to debate the policy rather than here, but for the reasons above I wouldn't expect TDF management to be particularly sympathetic to anyone expressing a less than balanced view.

Best wishes

Harem

justintime · Post by **justintime** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:18 pm

I agree with this 100%

Another thread might well be the place for anyone to debate the policy rather than here, but for the reasons above I wouldn't expect TDF management to be particularly sympathetic to anyone expressing a less than balanced view.
Best wishes
Harem

Of course not as this is the way they pay for this site to benefit us all.

It does not take more that 5 minutes to bring into question many ,many of the dolls for sale on TDF. Are they going to pull those down?
One of the requests says..Brand..so it has not been enforced so far , guess that will be the norm from now on, what if the seller does not know the brand?
What about members that have dolls that are copies, and talk about them in threads?
That's going to be some work,, good luck admins.

Post by **Slew** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:31 pm

haremlover wrote: Another thread might well be the place for anyone to debate the policy rather than here, but for the reasons above I wouldn't expect TDF management to be particularly sympathetic to anyone expressing a less than balanced view.

I imagine some members might have questions, no need to ask them elsewhere.

justintime wrote: It does not take more that 5 minutes to bring into question many ,many of the dolls for sale on TDF. Are they going to pull those down?
One of the requests says..Brand..so it has not been enforced so far , guess that will be the norm from now on, what if the seller does not know the brand?
What about members that have dolls that are copies, and talk about them in threads?
That's going to be some work,, good luck admins.

All good questions.

As for already existing content, well we aren't going to hunt down old posts to remove them. If one emerges on a bumped thread we may pull it, depending. If you see dolls for sale or discussed anywhere else on TDF, which you feel are counterfeits, please use the "report post" function to bring our attention to it.

If the seller does not know the brand, that is acceptable. Unknown brands might be cheaply made from crude molds, and are not necessarily all counterfeits.

Members who have dolls that are copies may not talk about that fact in their posts. Copies are counterfeits, and therefor in our view are illegal. Rule 2 applies.

We aren't going to police every photo to scrutinize the authenticity of the doll in the photos. Basically all is business as usual, we just aren't going to allow discussion/promotion of cheap fakes and where to get them.

If one of our sellers complains about a post, we'll give the brand benefit of doubt and the onus is on the member to prove their doll is legitimate if they can do so.

haremlover · Post by **haremlover** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:37 pm

Another perspective is that really with Kimberdoll offering good and proven quality dolls for prices with which fakes have a tough time competing, there really isn't reason at all to buy fakes.

Best wishes

Harem

ratfink · Post by **ratfink** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:44 pm

while I'm sure some people buy these knowing what they're buying, I suspect most buyers don't know the different brands, and have no idea that what they're buying is a violation of IP laws. Especially given that much of these purchases happen on Amazon, which they think is a legit source (which of course it isn't. Amazon has as much or more fakery than eBay or AliExpress.)

Post by **Slew** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:56 pm

Hi ratfink, yes, many don't realize what they're buying so they don't know not to post the doll here. So no penalty of course, but once it's discovered a doll is a copy, we'd remove the pics and inform the member.

justintime · Post by **justintime** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:32 pm

This is really good news from the stand point you are taking a stand, and bringing this to light.
Although it's been a practice , it's very good to just give a reminder like this to clarify details.
Good stuff

Mr Consistency · Post by **Mr Consistency** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:55 pm

What about instances where a post is made comparing the original and a ripoff doll? I can see things like that being useful for spotting fakes.

Post by **Slew** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:07 pm

Mr Consistency wrote:What about instances where a post is made comparing the original and a ripoff doll? I can see things like that being useful for spotting fakes.

Great question.

While at first it's easy to think this would be helpful, in most cases any news is good news in the advertising business. So if we allow that type of post, even if we are informing people how to identify them, the fakes are still getting unwanted press this way. Some will still find the savings worth the risks, and we don't want to encourage that.

PDutus · Post by **PDutus** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:24 pm

I agree with the sentiments here 100%. Cheap copies / fakes potentially damage reputations.

Z-Dollman · Post by **Z-Dollman** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:01 pm

Would showing factory pics of the actual doll received count as proof of genuineness?

I've received factory pics of EVERY SINGLE doll I've bought. I bought them all from the same vendor. I've also seen the backgrounds of my dolls in factories and the backgrounds are similar to other factory photos here on TDF (for example a permanent sign on a door and the framework surrounding it etc and other immutable displays etc.)

seagull · Post by **seagull** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:04 pm

Who buys from Amazon?

Z-Dollman · Post by **Z-Dollman** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:27 pm

I do. I have a Prime subscription. I actually got a package today from Amazon. A USB/PO combo, a usb extender and some cord clips.

NormalHuman · Post by **NormalHuman** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:19 pm

Agree. I noticed a lot of discussion going around too. Lot of questions about "I'm thinking go the cheapest route possible" and members here advising it will most likely be a knock off, and not of good quality. I myself put my money where my mouth is, and purchased the doll I did from the company I did, for full price because I want to reward the advances in the technology.

In for penny, in for a pound as they say

Post by **Slew** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:34 pm

ZiggyDollGuy wrote:Would showing factory pics of the actual doll received count as proof of genuineness?

I've received factory pics of EVERY SINGLE doll I've bought. I bought them all from the same vendor. I've also seen the backgrounds of my dolls in factories and the backgrounds are similar to other factory photos here on TDF (for example a permanent sign on a door and the framework surrounding it etc and other immutable displays etc.)

Maybe, but it would depend on a representative of the brand in question confirming it's their factory in the photo. But some of these factories are situated in large complexes of factories, and in use by multiple labels, not to mention some of them look almost identical. But I'd say factory photos would at least be taken into consideration if there was a dispute.