and, yes, retirement is good 
BoyToyDolls Silicone grade Discussion
Moderator: TJ_Foxx
We at Abyss make so secret that we use a tin-cure silicone. I have said it repeatedly; if you have questions, email me! I will give you more information than you ever wanted.Britti_Lover wrote:
What is Abyss REALLY using? I'd say a very high grade Tin Cure Process silicone.
What is Boy Toy using? I'd say a very high grade Platinum Cure Process silicone.
Will you ever get a straight answer from anyone - probably not. And my opinions are simply guesses.
With this in mind, here are some points to remember:
Not all silicones are created equal whether they are cured with tin or with platinum. Some platinum silicones have better qualities than others and some tin silicones have better properties than others. There is more to silicone chemistry than the curing agent. Abyss uses a proprietary blend of tin-cure silicone which is made for us to meet our needs and the use of the product. I am sure the same applies to the silicone used for Boy Toys, Mechadolls, Tantus toys and every other silicone product in the world (including your pot holders, spatulas and cake pans).
Also, be very careful about throwing around the term "medical grade". NOT all platinum silicone is medical grade. To qualify as medical grade the silicone manufacturer has to put the silicone through a battery of tests and then have it tested again for big $$$ by the government or whatever necessary agency. Medical grade means the silicone is suitable to make replacement arteries etc. Most toy manufacturers do not use medical grade silicones because of the cost. That doesn’t mean you're likely to have any kind of negative impact from the material though – unless you are using the doll to make replacement parts for yourself. Anyone cutting the breasts off dolls to use as implants?
The cooking utensils made of silicone are not medical grade and no one seems to be worried about toxic cupcakes. One of the joys of silicone is that once cured, it is typically inert. (Inert means that stuff inside the silicone stays there and doesn’t cause you to get sick, get hives or have your penis fall off.)
Crazyhorse is on the money with this. The additives to the silicone regardless of curing agent (platinum or tin) are what give the qualities we require for our products. Every statement in Crazyhorse's quote here is correct.Crazyhorse wrote:
Also, saying RD is tin rather than platinum doesn't necessarily mean it is inferior, there are products that can be added to a basic tin cure system to make it feel more like platinum grade (usually at the expense of long-term durability), and there are also cheaper platinum types that could have many of the same problems as tin, even top-quality silicone could be mixed improperly or have filler added to cut costs. All we really have from any manufacturer as to what they use, is their word (if even that), and the qualities of the final product.
Bingo! We can do the best possible testing and examine the qualities of our materials ad nauseum but the true test of stability and durability comes over the course of years. To date, RealDoll is the only company with over a decade of experience with our silicone in this type of product. Everyone else is just hoping and guessing for now (typically educated guesses though).technoguy wrote:NO one will know for sure how "durable" a new doll with a NEW silicone formula is UNTIL they have played the waiting game long enough. That could take months to years.
technoguy
See Crazyhorse's comment and my response as to why there's no definitive decision in this arena. There are just too many variables in silicones beyond the curing agents to make sweeping general statements.od wrote:What i really wonder, is why after over a year and a half on this same subject, that TG has not come to some "definitive" decision on his thoughts concerning the types of silicon and the effects of same.
I can allways wonder about the durability and safety of stainless steel..... oops, there is more than one type.
In that case rest assured. Silicones do not contain pthalates. Pthalates are found in other materials used for sex toys such as vinyl. They have been banned in Europe and other areas but are still legal in sex toys in the USA. They are no longer legal in children’s' toys like teething rings, however.technoguy wrote:At a minimum, I would be happy just to be assured that the silicone in my doll contained no pthalate ester oil plasticizer, just used a minimum of D-Limonene as a thinning solvent, and was made with a platinum based catalyst since there now seems to be some concern about tin compounds coming in skin contact.
technoguy
D-Limonene is not a thinning agent, it’s a solvent. There is no D-Limonene in silicone; there is only a minute amount used to seal on colors. D-Limonene is a citrus based product (hence the orange scent) used in products like Gojo hand cleaner and it is non-toxic.
I can’t speak for other manufacturers, obviously, but Matt K is very concerned about long-term health effects of the materials we use. He has been and continues to research potential negative side effects of cured tin-cure silicone. To date we have found no definitive information that cured silicone has any health issues when used the way our products are used. Since none of you is working with the raw curing agent, there shouldn’t be any health issues. Over the course of our business history, we have never received a report of silicone-related health issues. We also have our employees working with these materials on a daily basis and their health is of paramount importance. To our knowledge, none of them has had reactions to the silicone either, although many have allergies to latex gloves which is one of the reasons we no longer make latex product. Any future development headed up by Matt K will also be done with health effects at the forefront, both for the customers and for our employees. In small companies the employees often become very close and interact like family - the last thing we want to do is make our "family" sick.BelShanar wrote: I know it is naive of me to think that all toy producers of this variety will only use safe materials, but its just something I don't like to worry about.
There are a great many things that we come into contact with on a daily basis, like formaldehyde in your carpets and furniture, vehicle emissions, tobacco smoke, dust, pollen etc that have a significant negative impact on your health, especially compared to any potential miniscule amounts of tin you may come into contact with from a doll. For anyone interested, I (Bronwen) worked writing textbooks on environmental psychology and how the built environment with all its chemicals impacts human health before I came to work for Abyss. Toxins in the environment are a special point of interest to me; I’ve done a ridiculous amount of research and the tin in cured silicone doesn’t make a blip on the radar of all the nasty stuff you’re being subjected to (both natural and man-made) day to day.
Abyss Creations, LLC.
Sales - sales@realdoll.com (All Sales)
Media - media@realdoll.com (All Media Requests)
Phone - (760) 471 8418
Address -Abyss Creations
475 East Carmel Street
San Marcos, CA 92078
Abyss (Bronwen) wrote:
Yes, the D-Limonene is a solvent and does not get CHEMICALLY incorporated INTO the final cured polymer material. However, like the plasticizer oil and catalyst, it winds up "trapped" inside of the final cured silicone polymer's "matrix" like the water held in a sponge. Also, like the plasticiser oil and catalyst, the D-Limonene slowly evaporates out of the doll through the skin and is responsible for the slight "fruity" odor these silicone dolls give off.
technoguy
This is not what I remember us discussing here on TDF a few months ago. I think someone stated that the silicone monomer mix and its added catalyst, pigments, and plasticixer oil MUST be thinned with a SIGNIFICANT quantity of D-Limonene. This serves to thin the viscous monomer mixture so that it can more easily be poured into the mold for the doll. The D-Limonene is also important in facilitating the removal of any air bubbles from the monomer mixture that might be introduced into it is in the mechanical mixer used to stir the mixture prior to the pouring.D-Limonene is not a thinning agent, it’s a solvent. There is no D-Limonene in silicone; there is only a minute amount used to seal on colors. D-Limonene is a citrus based product (hence the orange scent) used in products like Gojo hand cleaner and it is non-toxic.
Yes, the D-Limonene is a solvent and does not get CHEMICALLY incorporated INTO the final cured polymer material. However, like the plasticizer oil and catalyst, it winds up "trapped" inside of the final cured silicone polymer's "matrix" like the water held in a sponge. Also, like the plasticiser oil and catalyst, the D-Limonene slowly evaporates out of the doll through the skin and is responsible for the slight "fruity" odor these silicone dolls give off.
technoguy
technoguy wrote:Abyss (Bronwen) wrote:
This is not what I remember us discussing here on TDF a few months ago. I think someone stated that the silicone monomer mix and its added catalyst, pigments, and plasticixer oil MUST be thinned with a SIGNIFICANT quantity of D-Limonene. This serves to thin the viscous monomer mixture so that it can more easily be poured into the mold for the doll. The D-Limonene is also important in facilitating the removal of any air bubbles from the monomer mixture that might be introduced into it is in the mechanical mixer used to stir the mixture prior to the pouring.D-Limonene is not a thinning agent, it’s a solvent. There is no D-Limonene in silicone; there is only a minute amount used to seal on colors. D-Limonene is a citrus based product (hence the orange scent) used in products like Gojo hand cleaner and it is non-toxic.
Yes, the D-Limonene is a solvent and does not get CHEMICALLY incorporated INTO the final cured polymer material. However, like the plasticizer oil and catalyst, it winds up "trapped" inside of the final cured silicone polymer's "matrix" like the water held in a sponge. Also, like the plasticiser oil and catalyst, the D-Limonene slowly evaporates out of the doll through the skin and is responsible for the slight "fruity" odor these silicone dolls give off.
technoguy
Technoguy please don't spread misinformation like this! We do NOT use D-Limonene in the silicone mix!!!! When I put information out there it's to make sure people have accurate information not the nonsense like you posted in your response. It may be hard to believe but I do know what I'm talking about and I make sure to run all my responses through Matt K to make sure the information is correct. You are confusing two very different products - diluent and D-limonene. I'd really appreciate it if all forum users wouldn't just speak out without knowing the actual facts.
Abyss Creations, LLC.
Sales - sales@realdoll.com (All Sales)
Media - media@realdoll.com (All Media Requests)
Phone - (760) 471 8418
Address -Abyss Creations
475 East Carmel Street
San Marcos, CA 92078
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flavortang
- Doll Advisor
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Crazyhorse
- Senior Member
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I have to say again that I have been sleeping with a Realdoll for nearly nine years and don't have any ill effects from silicone. My performance with real girls has improved with the practice from using my doll. My last real girl rated me with 9.7, 9.7, 9.8, 9.9, and 6.4. The 6.4 was due to my sloppy dismount when I took one step back after landing on the floor but I had consumed a great deal of wine that night. I'll be 65 next May.
Retirement is good
Retirement is good
Well, D-limonene can be used in the mix to thin the silicone, also as a "wash down" to remove mold release, ect.
Perhaps this is the case with Realdolls as they have that smell all over them when new.
In the case of the term "thinner" I've seen it used (incorrectly) to mean plastisizer. (smooth-on calls their silicone oil "thinner" for example) But in all fairness silicone oil does "thin" the mix so this is why there are conflicting uses of the term.
Thinner and solvent are esentially the same thing. Paint thinner is a solvent also volitile silicone oil, naptha, xylene, ect. These "thin" the silicone without changing the properties of the cured product. (at least once they've evaporated)
As far as levels of plastisizer / thinner required it depends on the silicone used, some bases are quite thick while others are very thin, yet both can have the same shore-A rating. Depends on what your working with.
There's a lot of things to be worried about (like that double cheeseburger you gulped down at lunch). Your silicone doll is not going to give you cancer.
The way Bill's going he may double the doll death toll though...
TG, I have to ask what are you basing these "concerns" on??
Perhaps this is the case with Realdolls as they have that smell all over them when new.
In the case of the term "thinner" I've seen it used (incorrectly) to mean plastisizer. (smooth-on calls their silicone oil "thinner" for example) But in all fairness silicone oil does "thin" the mix so this is why there are conflicting uses of the term.
Thinner and solvent are esentially the same thing. Paint thinner is a solvent also volitile silicone oil, naptha, xylene, ect. These "thin" the silicone without changing the properties of the cured product. (at least once they've evaporated)
As far as levels of plastisizer / thinner required it depends on the silicone used, some bases are quite thick while others are very thin, yet both can have the same shore-A rating. Depends on what your working with.
There's a lot of things to be worried about (like that double cheeseburger you gulped down at lunch). Your silicone doll is not going to give you cancer.
The way Bill's going he may double the doll death toll though...
TG, I have to ask what are you basing these "concerns" on??
I suddenly realized I\'m living in a dollhouse!
Abyss (Bronwen) wrote:
If Abyss does NOT use any D-Limonene to thin the silicone monomer mixture prior to its pouring and curing, then what accounts for the "fruity" smell your dolls exude for a long time after they are newly made? And, IF you are not using D-Limonene as a thinning agent prior to the pour, then WHAT is being used for thinning?
Sith Lord...
I agree with you that there is some confusion about the ingredients that go into the silicone monomer mixture prior to the pour and much of this confusion is due to the suppliers of these materials that often do not even know what they are selling!
To me, the basic ingredients of the mixture, prior to its pour to make a doll, are:
1.) the silicone monomer(s). There may be only a single type of molecule used or, in a "proprietary" blend two or more different types of molecules may be used. The types vary depending upon the organic molecular groups attached to the sides of a siloxane backbone at regular intervals. These are non-toxic..
2.) the plasticizer oil. This is dimethyl siloxane and helps "lubricate" the final cured silicone polymer "matirx" so as to improve the elasticity of it. It does NOT become a part of the molecular structure of the silicone polymer matrix, but, rather, remains "trapped" inside the lattice of the matrix like water held in a sponge. It is non-toxic.
3.) the thinning agent. Which I believe to be a SIGNIFICANT amount of the organic SOLVENT D-Limonene. This lowers the viscosity of the silicone monomer mixture so it will more easily pour into the mold and so that any air bubbles formed in it during mechanical mixing can be easily removed. It is rated as non-toxic, but I would not recommend drinking a large quantity of it!
4.) Various pigments. These are liquid and sometimes solid agents that will give color to the final silicone polymer. Like the plasticizer oil and thinner, they become trapped in the lattice of the matrix and do not become part of the molecular structure of the silicone polymer matrix itself. They are probably non-toxic, but, again, I would not recommend the consumption of a large quantity of them.
5.) Finally, the tin or platinum based catalyst. This is responsible for initiating and maintaining the polymerization reaction until, eventually, all of the silicone monomer molecules are incorporated into a giant silicone polymer matrix. The catalyst does NOT become part of the molecular structure of the silicone matrix, but, like the other ingredents, becomes trapped in the lattice work of the matrix. These catalysts ARE toxic and should not be consumed in quantity.
Once the sliicone polymer is cured and the matrix established, the ingredients "trapped" in its lattice work can, over time, begin to slowly exude from the doll. Thus, the "tacky" feel of some silicone polymers is due to small amounts of the plasticizer oil coming out. The "fruity" smell is due to small amounts of the D-Limonene coming out and, like many organic solvents, vaporizing into the air.
The concerns about tin toxicity may be prompted by the small amounts of tin based catalyst coming out with the silicone oil plasticizer in some silicone products. This catalyst is chemically reactive and, in another thread, we discussed how is was considered to be the cause of joint "rusting" in SOME dolls. Apparently, the catalyst could attack the particular type of steel used in the joints of those dolls!
And, finally, some of the pigment can come out too and result in a slight color change of the doll's skin over time.
It is also important to mention that not all of these "loose" ingredients will come out of a doll over time. Most of them will remain trapped in the polymer matrix unless extremes of pressure or heating are used to try to force them out of the lattice of the matrix..
Anyway, I am not very concerned about the health consequences of most of the materials listed above. What I am concerned about at the present time is the few bits of information that I am starting to see mentioned in the "chatter" of the internet about the "skin safety" of tin compounds. I am still seeking more information about this and will report it on TDF IF and when I obtain it.
Just for the record, unless I see CREDIBLE information to the contrary, I do presently consider both the materials used in RD's and MD's to be "safe" and I would not hesitate to purchase either of these dolls based solely on "health concerns"..
technoguy
Well, I am stlll not convinced that it is I who is dispensing MISinformation.Technoguy please don't spread misinformation like this! We do NOT use D-Limonene in the silicone mix!!!!
If Abyss does NOT use any D-Limonene to thin the silicone monomer mixture prior to its pouring and curing, then what accounts for the "fruity" smell your dolls exude for a long time after they are newly made? And, IF you are not using D-Limonene as a thinning agent prior to the pour, then WHAT is being used for thinning?
Sith Lord...
I agree with you that there is some confusion about the ingredients that go into the silicone monomer mixture prior to the pour and much of this confusion is due to the suppliers of these materials that often do not even know what they are selling!
To me, the basic ingredients of the mixture, prior to its pour to make a doll, are:
1.) the silicone monomer(s). There may be only a single type of molecule used or, in a "proprietary" blend two or more different types of molecules may be used. The types vary depending upon the organic molecular groups attached to the sides of a siloxane backbone at regular intervals. These are non-toxic..
2.) the plasticizer oil. This is dimethyl siloxane and helps "lubricate" the final cured silicone polymer "matirx" so as to improve the elasticity of it. It does NOT become a part of the molecular structure of the silicone polymer matrix, but, rather, remains "trapped" inside the lattice of the matrix like water held in a sponge. It is non-toxic.
3.) the thinning agent. Which I believe to be a SIGNIFICANT amount of the organic SOLVENT D-Limonene. This lowers the viscosity of the silicone monomer mixture so it will more easily pour into the mold and so that any air bubbles formed in it during mechanical mixing can be easily removed. It is rated as non-toxic, but I would not recommend drinking a large quantity of it!
4.) Various pigments. These are liquid and sometimes solid agents that will give color to the final silicone polymer. Like the plasticizer oil and thinner, they become trapped in the lattice of the matrix and do not become part of the molecular structure of the silicone polymer matrix itself. They are probably non-toxic, but, again, I would not recommend the consumption of a large quantity of them.
5.) Finally, the tin or platinum based catalyst. This is responsible for initiating and maintaining the polymerization reaction until, eventually, all of the silicone monomer molecules are incorporated into a giant silicone polymer matrix. The catalyst does NOT become part of the molecular structure of the silicone matrix, but, like the other ingredents, becomes trapped in the lattice work of the matrix. These catalysts ARE toxic and should not be consumed in quantity.
Once the sliicone polymer is cured and the matrix established, the ingredients "trapped" in its lattice work can, over time, begin to slowly exude from the doll. Thus, the "tacky" feel of some silicone polymers is due to small amounts of the plasticizer oil coming out. The "fruity" smell is due to small amounts of the D-Limonene coming out and, like many organic solvents, vaporizing into the air.
The concerns about tin toxicity may be prompted by the small amounts of tin based catalyst coming out with the silicone oil plasticizer in some silicone products. This catalyst is chemically reactive and, in another thread, we discussed how is was considered to be the cause of joint "rusting" in SOME dolls. Apparently, the catalyst could attack the particular type of steel used in the joints of those dolls!
And, finally, some of the pigment can come out too and result in a slight color change of the doll's skin over time.
It is also important to mention that not all of these "loose" ingredients will come out of a doll over time. Most of them will remain trapped in the polymer matrix unless extremes of pressure or heating are used to try to force them out of the lattice of the matrix..
Anyway, I am not very concerned about the health consequences of most of the materials listed above. What I am concerned about at the present time is the few bits of information that I am starting to see mentioned in the "chatter" of the internet about the "skin safety" of tin compounds. I am still seeking more information about this and will report it on TDF IF and when I obtain it.
Just for the record, unless I see CREDIBLE information to the contrary, I do presently consider both the materials used in RD's and MD's to be "safe" and I would not hesitate to purchase either of these dolls based solely on "health concerns"..
technoguy
I don't think I'll ever fail to be amazed by people who make sweeping statements about what we do and do no use in our products - especially those who have no experience with this type of product (not just the RealDoll brand specifically), have never even seen one in person, have no experience with the materials we use etc.
I will state this again: We do NOT USE D-LIMONENE IN THE SILICONE. It is used ONLY in very small quantities as a sealer for the make up and nipples. It has an extremely strong orange smell even in small quantities. We do NOT use D-Limonene as a thinning agent in the silicone OR as a cleaning agent for the dolls.
In case anyone is still the slightest bit confused:
I will state this again: We do NOT USE D-LIMONENE IN THE SILICONE. It is used ONLY in very small quantities as a sealer for the make up and nipples. It has an extremely strong orange smell even in small quantities. We do NOT use D-Limonene as a thinning agent in the silicone OR as a cleaning agent for the dolls.
In case anyone is still the slightest bit confused:
- D-Limonene is not a thinning agent for silicone,
it is not IN the silicone,
it is used in minute quantities as a sealer on some parts of the doll only,
it is not applied to the entire doll,
it is not used for cleaning,
it smells very strong even in small quantities,
it is non-toxic.
This is not a matter of opinion; it is fact.
Abyss Creations, LLC.
Sales - sales@realdoll.com (All Sales)
Media - media@realdoll.com (All Media Requests)
Phone - (760) 471 8418
Address -Abyss Creations
475 East Carmel Street
San Marcos, CA 92078
Abyss (Bronwen) wrote:
But, my question then becomes: If D-Limonene is NOT the solvent used to thin the pre-pour mixture, then WHAT is the solvent that is used?
technoguy
Fine. I will accept that and, in fact, it makes me happy to read this because I personally want any doll I get to be as odoress as possible. If only minute amounts of this pungent solvent are in the doll's skin, then it should evaporate away soon after the doll is cast.D-Limonene is not a thinning agent for silicone,
it is not IN the silicone,
it is used in minute quantities as a sealer on some parts of the doll only,
But, my question then becomes: If D-Limonene is NOT the solvent used to thin the pre-pour mixture, then WHAT is the solvent that is used?
technoguy
Hi All,
Ok its put clear by Bronwen here.
Please stop discussions about this, I think it does no good.
The silicone is not harmful to health.
See e.g. me.
I sleep every night with Helen since I got her.
I can still think clear and have no disability's too.
But... oh I love to sleep together with her.
Sharing the bed with a silicone doll U aren't alone any more.
Though I think once she has to make some space for a realgirl...
Mytime & Helen
Ok its put clear by Bronwen here.
Please stop discussions about this, I think it does no good.
The silicone is not harmful to health.
See e.g. me.
I sleep every night with Helen since I got her.
I can still think clear and have no disability's too.
But... oh I love to sleep together with her.
Sharing the bed with a silicone doll U aren't alone any more.
Though I think once she has to make some space for a realgirl...
Mytime & Helen
One dream, one mission...
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Incrediwagon
- Ex-Member
- Posts: 2396
- Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:00 am
- Location: Bay State
The odor does disapate fairly quickly. I was reminded of it when I bought my new doll a couple of months ago. Now there is no odor on the body except a little on the face.I bought the face from Slade which he made for me. When I first got it the smell reminded me of linseed oil, now it has a faint citrus smell. The other two older Abyss faces don't have any odor. Your wright abought the odor being a turn off, it was way to strong when laying next to her in bed.I ended up changing it for the older one for now. Ceilidh now smells of baby powder or purfume that I put on her. A little purfume adds just that much more realism. Plus you can use a scent you like.I personally want any doll I get to be as odoress as possible. If only minute amounts of this pungent solvent are in the doll's skin, then it should evaporate away soon after the doll is cast.
