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BoyToyDolls Silicone grade Discussion

A space for the legacy dolls manufactured by as Phoenix Studios. These include the Boy Toy Series 1 & 2: Calendar Girls, Seasons and C series.

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Britti_Lover
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Post by Britti_Lover »

8)
Britti,

1) Have you seen these dolls first-hand?

2) Will you be placing an order for one?
First - silicone -- These boy toy dolls are made from medical grade silicone - 'nuf said there - we all know its the best out there.

Platinum Cure Process Silicone - I've actually talked to silicone suppliers who say the current Realdolls are made from this stuff and SWEAR it is NOT Tin Cure Process Silicone.

Abyss says it isn't Platinum or Tin but custom silicone made just for them.

Most Silicone suppliers sell silicone based on Quality - more you pay, the more the silicone's durability, tear resistance, etc. improve. One supplier said that Tin based silicone has not been sold at all for 20 years!

Confused? Join the club. Matt is the expert here.

So - now you know everything I know on this subject.

Boy Toys - I've known about the dolls for quite a while. Matt DID extensive durability and usability testing of these dolls - and worked the bugs out of the dolls.

Should YOU buy one? If you want a light, durable and highly functional doll - the answer is yes.

:wink:

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Post by itsme »

Britti_Lover wrote:8)
Britti,

1) Have you seen these dolls first-hand?

2) Will you be placing an order for one?
First - silicone -- These boy toy dolls are made from medical grade silicone - 'nuf said there - we all know its the best out there.

Platinum Cure Process Silicone - I've actually talked to silicone suppliers who say the current Realdolls are made from this stuff and SWEAR it is NOT Tin Cure Process Silicone.

Abyss says it isn't Platinum or Tin but custom silicone made just for them.

Most Silicone suppliers sell silicone based on Quality - more you pay, the more the silicone's durability, tear resistance, etc. improve. One supplier said that Tin based silicone has not been sold at all for 20 years!

Confused? Join the club. Matt is the expert here.

So - now you know everything I know on this subject.

Boy Toys - I've known about the dolls for quite a while. Matt DID extensive durability and usability testing of these dolls - and worked the bugs out of the dolls.

Should YOU buy one? If you want a light, durable and highly functional doll - the answer is yes.

:wink:
There is no braking new in silicone----NONE-----NONE
BL look up Medical grade (Addition cure) silicone this is a ez look up.

Look up, Medical grade silicone, Prosthetic silicone, and the big one (Addition cure) :lol: :lol: :lol: its just means the mix is there own. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Tin based silicone has not been sold at all for 20 years!
OMFG where do you come up this.. ????
Will you please tell all the silicone Co. To stop selling it then.
Fucking Chemidex, and Dow, Smooth on. they must all be liying to us. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

All the speculation is foolish. JUST go to ASK and ask.
Jeeves has been fired. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Post by Sith_Lord »

In an effort to stem the tide of bullshit being dispenced in this thread...

There is no "third type" of silicone for these dolls it's either:

A- Platinum (addition cure) some Plats are medical grade (sutible for implantation) doesn't matter for dolls except a higher $. There seems to be a growing tendancy to automatically call Plat silicone medical grade even though the material being used is not. (ask for the MSDS sheet mfg's are required by law to provide these on request)

B- Tin (condensation cure) Realdolls are still made of this hence the referance to the "contaminated enviroment" of the Realdoll production facility.

Either product is essentially inert after curing and the only thing being excreated is silicone oil and possibly thinner (like D-limeonene).

As far as closing eyes goes this was an old option on the original solid head (pre face-X) Realdolls. Many of you weren't around for this, but it's not new at all.

As far as price I think a fully optioned lolly doll is around $20K (assuming you can actually get one and don't mind waiting 3yrs.). :roll:

Correction there is a third silicone - acetoxy (one part), obviously not fesable to make a doll from.
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Post by technoguy »

BL wrote:
One supplier said that Tin based silicone has not been sold at all for 20 years!
That's news to me!

Actually, and quite sadly, many chem company sales reps are not sure of exactly what they are selling. Many do not even have degrees in chemistry! If an outsider tries to get some specifics about a certain material, he will often be told it's "proprietary" or a "trade secret" and get no useful information. I think in the future this type of secrecy will be ending as consumers become more concerned about the safety of the products they are using. Anyone who purchases a product that is, in some way, taken into his body should have a right to know the EXACT nature of it. That should apply to a food, a medicine, a supplement, or a sex toy!

Right now, I am only aware of two types of catalysts used to cure silicone elastomer products: tin based and platinum based. Both types have an effect upon the final nature of the polymer produced and its characteristics.

However, there can be many different types of silicone monomer used to make the final cured polymer, each varying a bit from the other depending upon what "functional" group of atoms is attached to a siloxane "backbone" within the monomer. These functional groups will have varying effects upon the final physical properties of the polymer they form. It is also possible to form a final polymer from a mixture of monomers with different functional groups attached to them and the proportions of individual monomers within such mixtures may, indeed, be "trade secrets".

I am beginning to pick up some "chatter" on the internet about growing concerns over the "skin safety" of slicone products that have been cured with tin based catalyts. As many here know, ALL silicone products exude small amounts of the silicone oil used to plasticize them and this oil will also contain some of the catalyst originally used to cure the silicone polymer as well as any solvents used to thin the monomer prior to molding. If someone has physical contact with the oil, then it is possible for both the oil AND the tin catalyst it contains to be absorbed into the body.

The absorption of the oil is of minimal concern to me because it is, for all practical purposes, chemically inert. although SOME individual's immune systems seem to react to it. However, I have always wondered about the safety of the catalysts themselves.

I thnk I remember reading somewhere that silicone products cured with tin based catalysts that can come in skin contact have been banned for sale in Great Britain or the European Union. But, until I can find something more substantial about this, I must consider it to be a rumor at this point.


So, if Abyss is not using a tin or platinum based catalyst in their dolls, then what are they using?


technoguy

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Post by Crazyhorse »

Sith Lord wrote:In an effort to stem the tide of bullshit being dispenced in this thread...

There is no "third type" of silicone for these dolls it's either:

A- Platinum (addition cure) some Plats are medical grade (sutible for implantation) doesn't matter for dolls except a higher $. There seems to be a growing tendancy to automatically call Plat silicone medical grade even though the material being used is not. (ask for the MSDS sheet mfg's are required by law to provide these on request)

B- Tin (condensation cure) Realdolls are still made of this hence the referance to the "contaminated enviroment" of the Realdoll production facility.

Either product is essentially inert after curing and the only thing being excreated is silicone oil and possibly thinner (like D-limeonene).
I can confirm everything Sith is saying here... Abyss is not a chemical company and does not have the resources to develop a third type of silicone on their own, and no chemical company with the resources to develop it would ever give up exclusive rights to such a huge breakthrough to one small manufacturer. Also the most common problems reported with the dolls are very typical of tin-based silicones, and much less common in dolls we know are platinum. Even if somehow it really IS some other metal like nickel or something, its properties are close enough that it makes no real difference. More likely it was just something a sales rep or PR person said "in confidence" without really understanding what they were talking about.

Not a big deal really, but going around repeating extremely unlikely and unsubstantiated claims as being fact, is just going to confuse potential buyers, and possibly make the company seem less than honest.

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Post by Sith_Lord »

Although it's deviating from the subject of this thread.

We need to consider some facts concerning the issue of safety:

Skin absorbsion is extremely inefficiant as opposed to ingestion or blood stream injection.

The catalyst is part of the chemical composition of the final product so there would be little "free" catalyst after cure unless the product was over mixed with catalyst.

The mindset needs to be rational not jumping to baseless fears like aluminum pans causing altzimer's and the like...

A lot of cancers are caused by genetics, sunburns, having boobs or smoking. the less than .01% are caused by chemical exposure. Almost .00000001% are caused by cell phones and parts per billion scare stories.

And yet we don't think twice about hopping in a car... :roll:
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Post by itsme »

Sith Lord wrote:Although it's deviating from the subject of this thread.

We need to consider some facts concerning the issue of safety:

Skin absorbsion is extremely inefficiant as opposed to ingestion or blood stream injection.

The catalyst is part of the chemical composition of the final product so there would be little "free" catalyst after cure unless the product was over mixed with catalyst.

The mindset needs to be rational not jumping to baseless fears like aluminum pans causing altzimer's and the like...

A lot of cancers are caused by genetics, sunburns, having boobs or smoking. the less than .01% are caused by chemical exposure. Almost .00000001% are caused by cell phones and parts per billion scare stories.

And yet we don't think twice about hopping in a car... :roll:

dont for get ~radon~ kills lost of people. and that come from your celler.
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Post by Sith_Lord »

There are three things you'll likely die from:

Heart disease - this one's like 50%

Cancer - about 35%

Automobile crash - about 10%

The remaining 5% are home accidents and suicide.

Homicides are roughly .5% or less.

Doll related deaths .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% (the one death in 5,000 years was from a lifting accident) :lol:

Also to clarify "Medical Grade" only references purity of the product (trace elements) not gaurantee any better physical properties. In fact it narrows the ability to improve the physical product over a "non medical" grade.

A good comparison: which is stronger the $5000 "medical grade" hip joint or the $7 automobile tie rod end? That hip joint won't last 10min in your steering linkage.
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Post by technoguy »

Sith Lord wrote:
We need to consider some facts concerning the issue of safety:

Skin absorbsion is extremely inefficiant as opposed to ingestion or blood stream injection.

The catalyst is part of the chemical composition of the final product so there would be little "free" catalyst after cure unless the product was over mixed with catalyst.
I have to take exception with these statements you have made.

How well a compound is absorbed through the skin depends upon the nature of the compound. Fat soluable compounds are VERY easily absorbed into the skin. Many hormones in the form of fat soluable esters will be rapidly absorbed into the skin. The hormone creams used by menopausal women are only one example. The pthalate ester oils used as plasticizers in vinyls and SOME silicone and latex products is another example.

Also, the catalyst used to cure a silicone polymer does NOT, itself, become part of the polymer molecule. One of the definitions of a catalyst is that it promotes a chemical reaction WITHOUT being incorporated into the final molecular product of that reaction.

After the curing of the silicone is complete, practically all of the catalyst will remain mixed with the plasticizer oil that is "trapped" in the polymer's matrix. As the plasticizer oil slowly oozes out of the silicone polymer over time, it will also carry out some of the catalyst and the thinning solvent mixed in with the silicone monomers before the curing process took place.

The real question is whether or not the catalyst used in a silicone elastomer is, itself, fat soluable. IF so, then I think one could absorb a lot of it if they had skin contact with the oil coming out of the product.

This matter of tin's "skin toxicity" is something I am going to look into in greater depth...stay tuned!


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Post by od »

Image
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Post by Britti_Lover »

8O
Actually, and quite sadly, many chem company sales reps are not sure of exactly what they are selling. Many do not even have degrees in chemistry! If an outsider tries to get some specifics about a certain material, he will often be told it's "proprietary" or a "trade secret" and get no useful information.
After talking to several silicone makers this sadly is very true. But the vast differences in what they said they were selling was staggering.

What is Abyss REALLY using? I'd say a very high grade Tin Cure Process silicone.

What is Boy Toy using? I'd say a very high grade Platinum Cure Process silicone.

Will you ever get a straight answer from anyone - probably not. And my opinions are simply guesses.

:wink:

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Post by od »

Abyss Wrote:
Extraxt from the Material Safety Data Sheet of the silicone we use:

2. OSHA Hazardous Ingredients
None present. This is not a hazardous material as defined in the OSHA Hazard Communication Standard.


Extraxt from the Material Safety Data Sheet of the oil we use to soften the silicone:

2. COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
Component POLY(DIMETHYL)SILOXANE
CAS Reg Number 63148-62-9
OSHA Hazard N
Percentage 100

11. TOXICOLOGICAL INFORMATION
Acute Eye Irritation:
Toxicological Information and Interpretation:
eye - eye irritation, rabbit. Slightly irritating. Data for a similar product with a lower viscosity.

Acute Skin Irritation:
Toxicological Information and Interpretation:
skin - skin irritation, rabbit. Non-irritating. Data for a similar product with a lower viscosity.

Acute Dermal Toxicity:
No test data found for product.

Acute Respiratory Irritation:
No test data found for product.

Acute Inhalation Toxicity:
No test data found for product.

Acute Oral Toxicity:
Toxicological Information and Interpretation:
LDLo - lowest lethal dose, > 5000 mg/kg, rat. No deaths were observed.

Chronic Toxicity:
This product does not contain any substances that are considered by OSHA, NTP, IARC or ACGIH to be "probable" or "suspected" human carcinogens.


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Abyss Creations, LLC. 475 East Carmel Street, San Marcos, CA 92078 Phone (760) 471 8418 - FAX (760) 471 8417
This from a March 15, 2006 thread with the title of.............................

REALDOLL SILICON TOXIC ?http://www.dollforum.com/modules.php?na ... highlight=

Thomas has also posted a lot of information in that same thread that evidently was not read correctly.... Would be worth re-reading this thread for a "refresher" for some of you "old-timers" who still have concerns about the silicon... Me, i'm gonna die happy if there is a problem :wink:
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Post by Wildcard2007 »

Sith Lord wrote:There are three things you'll likely die from:
Heart disease - this one's like 50%
Cancer - about 35%
Automobile crash - about 10%
The remaining 5% are home accidents and suicide.
Homicides are roughly .5% or less.
Doll related deaths .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% (the one death in 5,000 years was from a lifting accident) :lol:
a few years ago saw somebody in england actually makes sence for a change:

"XTC" was so so dangerous but then the smart guy said: XTC is NOT dangerous because if you match the number of deaths to the ones caused by alcohol ?

what was it again ?

Heart disease - this one's like 50% etc...

you could offcourse be worried about Dolls, but what would be the point ?
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Post by BelShanar »

Sorry if this thread seems disjointed in its new form.

Admin thought that the other thread had been rather hijacked by all the discussion of silicone grades, and chemical safety data.

Since this IS an important topic it was decided that it should have its own thread, and that the original discussion should return to the topic of the dolls.




But let the commentary on the nuances of silicone continue!

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Post by Crazyhorse »

Britti_Lover wrote:8O

What is Abyss REALLY using? I'd say a very high grade Tin Cure Process silicone.

What is Boy Toy using? I'd say a very high grade Platinum Cure Process silicone.

Will you ever get a straight answer from anyone - probably not. And my opinions are simply guesses.

:wink:

I'd agree with this 100%.

Also, saying RD is tin rather than platinum doesn't necessarily mean it is inferior, there are products that can be added to a basic tin cure system to make it feel more like platinum grade (usually at the expense of long-term durability), and there are also cheaper platinum types that could have many of the same problems as tin, even top-quality silicone could be mixed improperly or have filler added to cut costs. All we really have from any manufacturer as to what they use, is their word (if even that), and the qualities of the final product.
Since this IS an important topic it was decided that it should have its own thread, and that the original discussion should return to the topic of the dolls.
Makes good sense to me.

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