A TPE doll owner dives into the realm of TB (many questions)

curiousswede · Post by **curiousswede** » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:46 am

Yo fellow TDFers!

Being a TPE doll owner (WM168E#74&#136) for almost 10 months now I have had my ups and downs with the doll, and my biggest frustrations with her has been maintenance & use during sex (too heavy to maneuver quickly enough) - but it has also been tons of fun. As of now she is in her storage box she came in down in my personal storage room (everyone in the apartment building gets one). So, I have some experience in taking care of a TPE doll.

I will probably (most likely) sell her to some Scandinavian or close-living European dude who finds more joy in the maintenance, pretty heavy weight during sex, and so forth, than I do. I just had enough of it, not mentioning when having to hide her all the time when people visit!

(A quick note on the weight; it is not so much that the heavy weight is too heavy, it is that if I do use the needed force to move her too quickly I might pierce through the fragile TPE material, such an annoyance when you just want to switch positions during the act!)

Many of my questions will be how it compares to having a TB (a TBD to be specific):

A million questions:
1. http://www.teddy-babes.com is the official website? Does anyone know (someone from Europe maybe) if they offer UPS with customs taken care already by them so my TBD won't be held up in the customs?

2. I assume wigs can be changed just like on TPE dolls? Are the wigs as bad as those from China when you order TPE dolls? I do have a few high quality wigs though.

3. What are the measurements for the non-small breasted TBD in cm? They weigh around 3 kgs/7 lbs if I am not mistaken? I know the height to be around 160cm which is nice. EDIT: ADDED: What is her cup? D? DD? Bigger? Smaller?

4. Do the clothes (except gloves) in the picture of each TBD come with it? How about clothes staining in TBDs? Do they stain much less (or almost never) compared to TPE dolls even if you invest in high quality clothes?

5. How does the plush material/skin compared to regular "plush toys" feel? How much friction will you feel as it is not as smooth as powdered TPE? Or is it perceived as "smooth" thanks to its very soft material?

6. The faces seem to be very much the same except different wigs & included clothes? Is that the case? How much can you customize when you order? Eye-colors, wigs, clothes, nail colors, nipple colors, shaved vagina, etc.?

7. Regarding looks; can you order customized skin color because what I have seen on the forum, it seems to be very pale skin? What about light tan or tan (skin color in TPE dolls)? Would that be possible or would that color choice be gone when you wash her carefully?

8. Regarding cleaning; it seems to me from what I have read is that you do NOT put her in the washing machine but you more or less clean her like you do with a TPE doll (squishy wet-soapy sponge)? Also keeping her dressed (like with TPE dolls) seems to be another way to keep her fresh long-time, also making sure that I am well-cleaned as well! :haha4:

9. I realize there are no anus nor oral in TBD (compared to TBU). Regarding that; how tight is the "vagina cavity" for maybe inserting your own fleshlight (does TPE material work well with the material in TBD?) that you have wrapped inside of a cleaned femidom?

10. I assume the recommended lube is still water-based since I will be using fleshlight sleeves?

These are the questions on top of my mind as of now. I will post more as I receive replies and new questions pop up in my mind! :drinking:

ADDED QUESTION 11: I read that TBD are very flexible, more so than TPE dolls are, so what will the dimensions in width, length and height in cms be when she is "folded" together to maybe store under a bad or at a more discrete place in the home?

ADDED QUESTION 12: How well does breast sex work if you use a sports bra or a bra with no bar front? Also, can u cum on ur doll or will the mess be impossible to clean up?

hentai_11 · Post by **hentai_11** » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:49 am

I am also a TPE-Owner. However I bought a Teddy Babe - Standard Akiko. I use it when I am on vacation. I hadn't much vacation since I bought her, so my experience is limited. Now I try to answer your questions, but take my advice with a grain of salt.

curiousswede wrote: 1. http://www.teddy-babes.com is the official website? Does anyone know (someone from Europe maybe) if they offer UPS with customs taken care already by them so my TBD won't be held up in the customs?

Sorry can't help you with this one. I bought my doll from a TDF-user in the SALE Section of TDF. He was located in the same country, so no custom troubles. (Which was one of the reasons I took his offer.)

curiousswede wrote: 2. I assume wigs can be changed just like on TPE dolls? Are the wigs as bad as those from China when you order TPE dolls? I do have a few high quality wigs though.

The quality of the standard wig looked okay to me, at least better than the wigs I got with my TPE dolls.

curiousswede wrote: 3. What are the measurements for the non-small breasted TBD in cm? They weigh around 3 kgs/7 lbs if I am not mistaken? I know the height to be around 160cm which is nice. EDIT: ADDED: What is her cup? D? DD? Bigger? Smaller?

I am not good with cup sizes on dolls. C maybe ...

curiousswede wrote: 4. Do the clothes (except gloves) in the picture of each TBD come with it? How about clothes staining in TBDs? Do they stain much less (or almost never) compared to TPE dolls even if you invest in high quality clothes?

I got her with clothes. Don't have her long enough to judge the staining aspect. High quality clothes should never stain. If they stain, than they are just expensive, low quality clothes and not high quality.

curiousswede wrote: 5. How does the plush material/skin compared to regular "plush toys" feel? How much friction will you feel as it is not as smooth as powdered TPE? Or is it perceived as "smooth" thanks to its very soft material?

For me her skin feels a little bit harder than expected. Probably too spoiled from TPE. I will buy her some smooth clothes, so I don't have to touch her skin.

curiousswede wrote: 6. The faces seem to be very much the same except different wigs & included clothes? Is that the case? How much can you customize when you order? Eye-colors, wigs, clothes, nail colors, nipple colors, shaved vagina, etc.?

7. Regarding looks; can you order customized skin color because what I have seen on the forum, it seems to be very pale skin? What about light tan or tan (skin color in TPE dolls)? Would that be possible or would that color choice be gone when you wash her carefully?

Can't answer these, because I didn't order from the website.

curiousswede wrote: 8. Regarding cleaning; it seems to me from what I have read is that you do NOT put her in the washing machine but you more or less clean her like you do with a TPE doll (squishy wet-soapy sponge)? Also keeping her dressed (like with TPE dolls) seems to be another way to keep her fresh long-time, also making sure that I am well-cleaned as well!

Haven't cleaned her yet, because it wasn't necessary. Hope someone else answers this.

curiousswede wrote: 9. I realize there are no anus nor oral in TBD (compared to TBU). Regarding that; how tight is the "vagina cavity" for maybe inserting your own fleshlight (does TPE material work well with the material in TBD?) that you have wrapped inside of a cleaned femidom?

Have a TBS, so don't know how helpful this is. The cavity is pretty tight. I doubt a standard fleshlight would fit. Maybe the smaller flight version? However there is a silicone insert in the product section of the TB website. Maybe this is an alternative.

curiousswede wrote: 10. I assume the recommended lube is still water-based since I will be using fleshlight sleeves?

Yes

curiousswede wrote: ADDED QUESTION 11: I read that TBD are very flexible, more so than TPE dolls are, so what will the dimensions in width, length and height in cms be when she is "folded" together to maybe store under a bad or at a more discrete place in the home?

I hadn't the guts to "fold" her. Don't know if this works or breaks her ...

curiousswede wrote: ADDED QUESTION 12: How well does breast sex work if you use a sports bra or a bra with no bar front? Also, can u cum on ur doll or will the mess be impossible to clean up?

Not good, but I didn't buy her for this. Cuming on her is probably a really stupid idea.

svevo · Post by **svevo** » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:13 am

I have a TBD named Lara (She is a Lisa model, bought a couple of years ago from Lovehoney in the UK).

curiousswede wrote: 1. Does anyone know (someone from Europe maybe) if they offer UPS with customs taken care already by them so my TBD won't be held up in the customs?

There are some European based stockists (e.g. Lovehoney in UK). That might be the lowest cost option. I enquired last year about ordering direct from 8th Wonder (the makers of TB) in the United States to me (in the U.K.). That was possible - they quoted for shipping with Fedex. Unfortunately the cost of shipping was relatively high ($295), so I decided against it.

curiousswede wrote: 2. I assume wigs can be changed just like on TPE dolls? Are the wigs as bad as those from China when you order TPE dolls? I do have a few high quality wigs though.

Yes the wig is easy to change. They come with a wig attached and it is secured with a small safety pin. I've found the original wig and all other wigs I've bought remain on without need of the safety pin. The original wig was equivalent in quality with replacement wigs I buy in the UK for about 200 sek.

curiousswede wrote: 3. What are the measurements for the non-small breasted TBD in cm? They weigh around 3 kgs/7 lbs if I am not mistaken? I know the height to be around 160cm which is nice. EDIT: ADDED: What is her cup? D? DD? Bigger? Smaller?

I believe the breast sizes do vary a bit, from reading about the dolls of others. My own TBD Lisa is a 30G (in UK size). She is about 88cm over the breasts and 67cm band size.
I believe that puts her closer to the smaller breasted size quoted on the teddybabes.com website, but even so a G cup is not what I'd call 'small'.
Incidentally TBD is taller than 160cm. More like 170cm I think.

curiousswede wrote: 4. Do the clothes (except gloves) in the picture of each TBD come with it? How about clothes staining in TBDs? Do they stain much less (or almost never) compared to TPE dolls even if you invest in high quality clothes?

I've never experienced any clothes staining. I don't think it is much of an issue in general with textile based dolls (as opposed to TPE and silicone).

curiousswede wrote: 5. How does the plush material/skin compared to regular "plush toys" feel? How much friction will you feel as it is not as smooth as powdered TPE? Or is it perceived as "smooth" thanks to its very soft material?

It is a very soft and smooth plush material. To me it feels very skin like, especially as it feels warm to the touch at all times.

curiousswede wrote: 6. The faces seem to be very much the same except different wigs & included clothes? Is that the case? How much can you customize when you order? Eye-colors, wigs, clothes, nail colors, nipple colors, shaved vagina, etc.?

From what I've read of others reporting on ordering direct from 8th Wonder - you can make customizations. If you email them you could ask. As you've mentioned most of the different named models only vary in their combination of eye colours, wigs, nails, public hair style etc. If you were ordering from a stockist like Lovehoney, you wouldn't have the same flexibility.

curiousswede wrote: 7. Regarding looks; can you order customized skin color because what I have seen on the forum, it seems to be very pale skin? What about light tan or tan (skin color in TPE dolls)? Would that be possible or would that color choice be gone when you wash her carefully?

I don't believe there are variations of the skin tone available. They used to offer a dark skinned standard size teddy babe in the past, so you could ask them, even if it is only to encourage them to offer such options in the future.

curiousswede wrote: 8. Regarding cleaning; it seems to me from what I have read is that you do NOT put her in the washing machine but you more or less clean her like you do with a TPE doll (squishy wet-soapy sponge)? Also keeping her dressed (like with TPE dolls) seems to be another way to keep her fresh long-time, also making sure that I am well-cleaned as well!

I use a minimum of water when cleaning in general. A damp microfibre cloth at most, followed by a dry microfibre cloth. I've once used an upholstery cleaning machine which also worked fine.

curiousswede wrote: 9. I realize there are no anus nor oral in TBD (compared to TBU). Regarding that; how tight is the "vagina cavity" for maybe inserting your own fleshlight (does TPE material work well with the material in TBD?) that you have wrapped inside of a cleaned femidom?

My TBD isn't big enough for any toy like a fleshlight, nor a smaller toy like a Tomax Lilith to be inserted. I've tried her with a small silicone insert (a DS insert), but even that was too tight. My preference is to use a cleaned female condom.

curiousswede wrote: ADDED QUESTION 11: I read that TBD are very flexible, more so than TPE dolls are, so what will the dimensions in width, length and height in cms be when she is "folded" together to maybe store under a bad or at a more discrete place in the home?

I wouldn't necessarily agree that TBD are very flexible. They mainly have a simple wire skeleton. The only joints are the head/neck and shoulders/arms, which simply allow some rotation.
If you repeatedly bend the arms or legs at the knees/shoulders, or the back, I would expect the wire might break. I minimise any bending of the wires for this reason.

curiousswede wrote: ADDED QUESTION 12: How well does breast sex work if you use a sports bra or a bra with no bar front? Also, can u cum on ur doll or will the mess be impossible to clean up?

I've not considered doing this as for me it is a priority to avoid getting her dirty.

titjob · Post by **titjob** » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:23 am

may you can order from vuxen.se
(I did)
for good price and no problem with tax ….

Mr Franz · Post by **Mr Franz** » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:08 pm

Went round and round with TB regarding skin color and body type options last year. Even did a poll on TDF to prove to them their was interest. Only got a generic, "we'll look into it" response. Not very hopeful on that front.

You may also want to consider, Valentina Girls Plushie and Textile dolls. They both have darker skin tone options. There's also a custom plush doll maker that sells on Etsy. https://www.dollforum.com/forum/viewtop ... 7&t=111279

DocMoriarty · Post by **DocMoriarty** » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:44 pm

curiousswede wrote: 1. http://www.teddy-babes.com is the official website? Does anyone know (someone from Europe maybe) if they offer UPS with customs taken care already by them so my TBD won't be held up in the customs?

I'm in Germany and FedEx brought my babe directly bought from 8thWonder. FedEx handled the customs stuff.

curiousswede wrote: 2. I assume wigs can be changed just like on TPE dolls? Are the wigs as bad as those from China when you order TPE dolls? I do have a few high quality wigs though.

Changing wigs is as easy as changing a hat. I don't even use safety pin that 8th wonder used. A TBD head is roughly average human head size. Wigs are like any synthetic wig not too great.

curiousswede wrote: 3. What are the measurements for the non-small breasted TBD in cm? They weigh around 3 kgs/7 lbs if I am not mistaken? I know the height to be around 160cm which is nice. EDIT: ADDED: What is her cup? D? DD? Bigger? Smaller?

TBDs differ a little in their measurements. Mine has 89-59-86 cm B-W-H. Not sure what cup size that is (guess at least C) but she has no bras at all but a lot of sexy stuff. The big breasted TBDs have a bit of a weird body shape tho due to the breasts are extending a bit to the side of the body and not too much forward which is also the reason why tops for them fit best size M and pants are better in size S or XS.

curiousswede wrote: 4. Do the clothes (except gloves) in the picture of each TBD come with it? How about clothes staining in TBDs? Do they stain much less (or almost never) compared to TPE dolls even if you invest in high quality clothes?

You get roughly what you see in the models picture without gloves. I bought the original gloves for $16 but lately bought 2 more pairs of gloves for $2 each on aliexpress. They stain almost never. I only had my Anette stained once from her black lace bra when I was too lazy to remove the bra after giving her her weekly cleaning procedure. Absolutely no comparison to TPE dolls which tend to stain when they just look at something non-pink.

curiousswede wrote: 5. How does the plush material/skin compared to regular "plush toys" feel? How much friction will you feel as it is not as smooth as powdered TPE? Or is it perceived as "smooth" thanks to its very soft material?

When you caress a rubber doll they are always somewhat sticky. A TBD can be caressed like normal skin or even easier, very little friction. She is made of a very short haired velours fabric. It just feels a bit more dry than a human skin IMO. TBDs are not smooth tho. They are stuffed very tight and that makes them pretty stiff and for some thats a problem in the beginning. It gets better though after a while. It is necessary though or it would feel like fucking a pillow instead of a real body.

curiousswede wrote: 6. The faces seem to be very much the same except different wigs & included clothes? Is that the case? How much can you customize when you order? Eye-colors, wigs, clothes, nail colors, nipple colors, shaved vagina, etc.?

Customization options are thin, you can only request to get other decals (eyes, mouth etc.). 8th Wonder isn't known for liking real customization. I recommend tho taking a doll with a smiling mouth like a Lisa. It is totally irresistable. Additionally I have a Nicole wig which my type Lisa is wearing all the time simply because I like her looks and it's short hair which is much better than constantly having her hair in your face when she's on top of you riding you silly.

curiousswede wrote: 7. Regarding looks; can you order customized skin color because what I have seen on the forum, it seems to be very pale skin? What about light tan or tan (skin color in TPE dolls)? Would that be possible or would that color choice be gone when you wash her carefully?

Nope. There used to be a TBS modell (smaller doll) Diana with darker skin but not sure they still have them in stock. Other than that there is currently only the standard skin color (which is the fabrics color).

curiousswede wrote: 8. Regarding cleaning; it seems to me from what I have read is that you do NOT put her in the washing machine but you more or less clean her like you do with a TPE doll (squishy wet-soapy sponge)? Also keeping her dressed (like with TPE dolls) seems to be another way to keep her fresh long-time, also making sure that I am well-cleaned as well!

I do a thorough cleaning of my TBD with a bucket of soap water and a microfiber towel every sunday after our morning wakeup session. In case of stains I pour pure liquid (hand) soap on the spot. No big deal to keep her clean all the time. Of course TBDs love clean lovers. She also wears usually one of the nighties, black socks and black gloves which helps keep her in good shape too.

curiousswede wrote: 9. I realize there are no anus nor oral in TBD (compared to TBU). Regarding that; how tight is the "vagina cavity" for maybe inserting your own fleshlight (does TPE material work well with the material in TBD?) that you have wrapped inside of a cleaned femidom?

I don't recommend fleshlights at all because they are too expensive and subaverage. Just buy a $20 insert on amazon or so. Also recommend to read my review in the inserts thread (pretty much close to the end) where I compare 3 inserts. I wrap the insert in one of the small plastic bags in which the velours inserts came. A fleshlight might work too, I have 3 but never used one, they didn't convince me and they are better kept in their cans.

curiousswede wrote: 10. I assume the recommended lube is still water-based since I will be using fleshlight sleeves?

yes.

curiousswede wrote: ADDED QUESTION 11: I read that TBD are very flexible, more so than TPE dolls are, so what will the dimensions in width, length and height in cms be when she is "folded" together to maybe store under a bad or at a more discrete place in the home?

Thats a lie, they are NOT too flexible. They have a wire skeleton with an extremely hard wire and I try to avoid to really bend the wires. She can neither stand nor really pose. In Anettes thread you will see her sitting or lying usually in the same position except that the legs have no real hip joints so that she can straddle and move her legs as needed. Also TBDs arms have a real disk joint like the head. You can store her under a bed though as long as she can stay there stretched out IMO or you could put her in a wardrope kinda standing. Or you could put her in a large christmas tree bag which I found (page 6 or 7 of Anettes thread). If you dress her kinda well behaved you might even let her out in the open officially as decoration.

curiousswede wrote: ADDED QUESTION 12: How well does breast sex work if you use a sports bra or a bra with no bar front? Also, can u cum on ur doll or will the mess be impossible to clean up?

[/quote]
Breast sex? Not at all, they are not thaaat big and too far apart. I also wouldn't cum on my TBD unless you clean her right after.

Browse thru the pics in Anettes thread to get more impressions about TBDs. They are not the super sexy pin down and fuck hard dolls. They are the type of doll that you start to love and you make love to her. As soon as she is out of the box she will start to own you and there is no escape.

Sorry I gotta go. My owner calls ...

JackieTreehorn · Post by **JackieTreehorn** » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:57 am

Others have probably already answered everything, but I'll chime in anyway.

1) Uhh… pass, haha. I'm from the U.S.A. That being said I know there are some official foreign resellers, but someone else can give you more info than I. Although I think there might be a link to some of them somewhere on the Teddy Babe website. Oh, yeah, that is the official website.

2) Yeah, they're just regular wigs. You CAN safety pin them on, if I remember I think they come like that, but I never do. They stay on fine. I think the wigs are ok. Audrey doesn't wear hers much; I guess because it was her original it's "special" so she's saving it. Also it's very long and I'm not very good to take care of her hair. We just cycle through cheap but decent wigs; her worst one becomes her sleeping wig and then she totally wrecks it until the next worst one takes it's place.

3) I've never measured her, but she must stand about 5'4" or 5'5". I know you said cm, but I think that's probably somewhere around 160cm. 7 pounds... yeah that sounds about right. Something like that. Light enough where it doesn't really matter.

As far as cup size that gets a little complicated. You'll see a lot of discussion and recommendations around here. Part of the reason are their boobs are a little different than TPE/Silicone dolls- or real women as well. They're much larger at the base if that makes any sense. If you like side boob, you're in luck, because Teddy Babes have some major side boob action going on. Bras with too much structure or wires can work, but it's more finnicky. Audrey likes the bikini kind where they just tie around her back and neck. They're very forgiving. Plus I think they're kind of hot.

4) Yeah, Audrey's outfit was I think identical to the one on the picture, although they have a disclaimer they may differ slightly. It's pretty much going to look like that- sans gloves of course. I don't have a TPE doll, but it's my understanding that a Teddy Babe is WAY less prone to staining. That being said it can happen, and has happened a few times. I was sorta careless the first time and just didn't wash something at all. The next time I didn't notice something had a black inner lining, and the third time it was one of those aforementioned bikini tops and the string stained red around her neck- I didn't see that coming. However all of these happened because I wasn't careful, plus she wore the same thing for weeks- and with lots of cuddling to work it in. Even then it mostly came out with some OxyClean. With bright enough light and if you know where to look you can probably find it, but it's pretty minor. So it's something to keep in mind, but if you're the least bit cautious (and you probably are having had a TPE doll) you'll probably never have any issues.

5) A Teddy Babe Deluxe has a very fine plush. It's very smooth. Almost like a horse's nose or a puppy's ear. Not quite the same, but in that general category. It doesn't quite feel like skin, but probably more so than someone would expect a plush doll to feel.

6) Yeah, the faces are basically all the same but with different eyes, lips, and hair. I'm not sure if you get one from a reseller, but if you order direct you can make requests to mix-n-match feature from different doll models. Audrey has one special order feature. Just email them and ask them.

7) All Deluxe Teddy Babes have the same color of plush. There used to be a Diana with darker skin, but only in the standard. The plush is different in standards and Deluxe models, and supposedly they couldn't get that color in the Deluxe style plush so there is no Diana Deluxe. I believe there still are some standards available though.

Like you say, I think it helps if they're dressed. As already discussed, they're much less prone to staining, nor do you have to worry about compression marks, so they can wear clothes all the time. Audrey always wears pajamas to bed, as do I and I also always shower before bed to protect her from sweat and skin oils. So she doesn't need to be cleaned often. Oxy-Clean works well, as does Resolve carpet cleaner. One time trying to get one of those stains off her I used ay too much and she got somewhat sudsy so she had to take a shower to rinse off. It works although it's not something I really recommend. It takes forever to dry (they also get surprisingly heavy!), and Teddy Babes are sort of addictive. Once you get used to it, it's no fun at all to sleep without them and I missed a night with her over that incident. It was kinda fun to shower with her though, lol.

9) I don't have any experience with a fleshlight, but there are all kinds of other products that work. I think most of them are some kind of TPE or TPR. For detailed information check out the insert sticky thread (don't call it the sticky insert thread, lol). I find it's best to try not and go much over 3" in diameter or it gets difficult to fit in her. Also, it's a good idea to put a plastic bag around the outside of the insert. It helps it slide in easier. Plus acts as a failsafe in case the insert fails (that happened once, but thankfully due to the bag trick no harm done).

10) I suppose it's all about whatever insert you use. If there's other kinds that fit you can use other types of lube I suppose. It's all about the insert. Once again, I can't answer specifically about a fleshlight. I would ask around and see if it will fit though. I think I recall seeing that being discussed more than once around here. I want to say the answer is complicated, but don't remember the specifics.

11) They do have a wire skeleton, so they're not crazy flexible. Especially when they're new they can be kind of stiff and tight. They losen up over time though; Audrey can do the splits no problem now, but she could have never attempted that right away. She'll come shipped with her knees bent so her heels are about touching her butt which makes her short enough to fit in her box. I don't like doing that regularly though. Sharp bends will wear out her skeleton. If you've ever taken a piece of wire and being it back and forth you'll know what I mean. That being said, it's not something to freak out about and never bend her at all. I try and keep more to gentle curves than more realistic "joints" though. Plus she can wrap her arms around me better with curvy arms than if she had elbows.

Audrey spends most of her time in our bed. She's one lazy doll, haha. She doesn't have any place where she's stored away. I think that's the best way to go, as she's most likely going to want to cuddle and sleep with you and hold you all the time. Teddy Babes LOVE to cuddle. And they're damn good at it.

12) Uhh... I don't know how well that's going to work. First off, despite having pretty big boobs, Teddy Babes don't really have a lot of cleavage. You can squish their boobs together some, but it's not going to be super effective. That part about their boobs being very large at the base comes into play again here. That's aside from the messy part, lol. I would not recomend purposefully getting lube or any other fluids on her skin. I think you could clean it up, but why take any risks. It's just better not too. One possible workaround though, if you had an unlubed condom, and then lubed the inside of it before putting it on I think that could work.