It is currently Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:45 am

By visiting this website and viewing the pages within, you accept and agree to be bound by and comply with the Rules Of Conduct and Terms Of Use of this website.


Official TDF Rules & TOS


Please click on either selection to view: Rules Of Conduct | Terms Of Use




 Page 1 of 4 [ 58 posts ]  
Search for:
Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
   
 Post subject: Long term skeleton durability
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:38 pm 
Doll Mentor
Doll Mentor
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:00 am
Posts: 1079
Location: Sweden
So, I wasn't sure if I should post this or not but without feedback how are the manufactures ever going to improve?


As many of you know I care deeply for my Emma (156 cm Sanhui Adeline) and she has been with me for little over 9 months now. damn time rushes by...
As time has gone by my interest for photography has also increased but it is becoming really hard to find poses that Emma can still do. Because her skeleton is becoming really really loose. At first it was her elbows that stopped holding poses (well, one elbow didn't hold a pose when she was new either). Then her knees and shoulders. Now the arms and knees are "floppy" and cannot hold any pose at all. Her hips and back are starting to give in now and getting her to sit upright without a back support is getting a real challenge, although still possible.

Also the twist part of the back joint is almost friction less so she turns very easily and the neck joint is also getting loose. She still holds her head up in all poses but I'm scared to move it more than absolutely necessary now as her not being able to hold the head up is a major scare...

I should add that she was stiff when new. Very stiff. To bend some joints I had to use the full force of my body and when she started to loosen up I was at first relieved but there doesn't seem to be an end on the loosening process... Of course how much you use your doll will have an impact too...


I'm not sure what can be expected as this is my first doll so my references are zero. But I think this is something that Sanhui needs to take action against. In an otherwise very fine doll if I may say so.

Not sure if there are any possibility to rectify some of these problems via surgery but I think I remember reading some post about the nuts being welded so I guess not :(


UPDATE
It turned out that with high probability at least the neck, knees, elbows and wrists can easily be tightened using a Allen wrench since only the nut is welded to the frame and not the bolt head. At least this was the case on a 145 cm that Samara performed a surgery on!

This puts everything into better light and maintainability just increased a lot :D



_____________________________
Check out Emmas thread!
 AIM Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long term skeleton durability
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:47 pm 
Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 4:20 pm
Posts: 344
Location: US
This has unfortunately been the case with my 160 cm as well. She is now basically a "loose-jointed" doll. It's sad, because I used to even be able to have her stand with just slight assistance leaning on something like the bed or a wall, and that just really added a lot to her presence and the experience. My doll now can no longer hold her head up, which is probably the worst part, as this also means her hair gets messed up in the process of falling. So now Luna mostly stays in bed and doesn't really leave it except for bathing. I think that externally, especially the new improved models are fantastic, better and more realistic looking than more some more expensive competitors in many ways, but some other brands have a clear leg up on skeletal stamina.


 AIM Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long term skeleton durability
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:44 pm 
Doll Advisor
Doll Advisor
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:44 pm
Posts: 939
Location: with Nele, Kiko and Ms. Mamamba StrangeLove in cyba's space
Well, I don't think that Sanhui or any other manufacturer competing in the lower or mid-price range can fix this.
If prices should stay that "low" (compared to RD for example) there is not much room for significant improvements.

They may improve overall quality, add features like the shrugging shoulders (Jinsan), kneeling (Dollhouse168), use ball-joints (6Ye) or add cosmetic features like textured skin for example.
But you cannot do much to improve the joints unless you use different more expensive materials.

Metal rubbing on metal (mild steel in this case) will wear quickly with use and there is no elegant way to tighten the joints without cutting into the flesh. Which you would have to do every couple of months or so depending on the amount of activity. Which would scar the doll heavily and ruin it this way.

So as long as costumers aren't willing (or able) to pay much much more, we won't see things like "spring loaded" joints that keep a "constant" tension or the use of different materials like hardened steel or ceramics which would wear much less.



_____________________________
Life is a strange game: "The only winning move is not to play."
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long term skeleton durability
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:45 pm 
Forum Administrator
Forum Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:08 pm
Posts: 3469
Location: Somewhere in England
Hi Sofos
Sorry to hear that, poor Emms. I think surgery is the only possibility on existing dolls but simple improvements in joint design by Sanhui could be implemented for new dolls.
Just an idea but if the nuts are welded they obviously can't be undone but the bolt side will be adjustable. You could remove the bolt then between the fork and the mating part fit nylon and steel washers. If there is enough space fit three, if not fit one, the nylon one on the welded nut side and the steel one on the bolt side with perhaps a spring washer under the bolt head to prevent turning. It's important to only use one nylon washer, the joint will be too loose using two. Retighten the bolt until slightly too tight, check for movement, then seal up the wound again. The nylon washer is self lubricating and so the tension should remain for some time. The hip joints may prove to be virtually impossible due to the amount of foam filler used to bulk that area but certainly leg and arm joints could be tackled that way,



_____________________________
"Everybody's Got Something To Hide Except Me And My Monkey" - John Lennon

Super Softy Monkey Team Doll Force Go !!

Hanna's Thread
Hanna's Album
Hanna's CoverDoll Shoot
 AIM Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long term skeleton durability
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:12 pm 
Vendor Affiliated
Vendor Affiliated

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:32 am
Posts: 12768
I am going to be opening up my 145. As for loosening the bolt i have welder gun for that. I will be attempting to undo the weld at the bolt. Wish me luck everyone. I will report back in the san hui section with my findings.



_____________________________
The empty orchestra still plays.
Bored, certified "plastic" surgeon. Serving the masses.
Dolls i have worked on. Real doll ,JM doll,teddybabes,Anime fabric doll,wm doll, d.s dolls, Diao shi, extravaganza air dolls, 1st pc, and candy8teen dolls.

Need work done? Feel free to send me a note.
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long term skeleton durability
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:30 pm 
Doll Advisor
Doll Advisor
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:00 pm
Posts: 598
Location: Northwettest
nukeno wrote:
Well, I don't think that Sanhui or any other manufacturer competing in the lower or mid-price range can fix this.
If prices should stay that "low" (compared to RD for example) there is not much room for significant improvements.

They may improve overall quality, add features like the shrugging shoulders (Jinsan), kneeling (Dollhouse168), use ball-joints (6Ye) or add cosmetic features like textured skin for example.
But you cannot do much to improve the joints unless you use different more expensive materials.

Metal rubbing on metal (mild steel in this case) will wear quickly with use and there is no elegant way to tighten the joints without cutting into the flesh. Which you would have to do every couple of months or so depending on the amount of activity. Which would scar the doll heavily and ruin it this way.

So as long as costumers aren't willing (or able) to pay much much more, we won't see things like "spring loaded" joints that keep a "constant" tension or the use of different materials like hardened steel or ceramics which would wear much less.



Its funny you mention mild steel, as I have suspected its use no matter what manufacturers say. Most say stainless steel or titanium frame, and as a machinist, I know how cost prohibitive these materials can be. Human implant prosthetics have come a long way using ceramic and hybrid materials to get more than 10 year expected service, but if these concepts were used in dolls, well, the costs would be in the tens of thousands. I bought my dolls knowing they are TPE, and pot metal, and they will wear out, but if I get a year of pleasure, I think its a pretty reasonable price to pay. Kind of like television tech, it sucks when the old set breaks down, but ya get to up-grade to the latest tech, so, all is not lost!



_____________________________
It is okay to feed the bear! In fact, it is highly recommended! Just be sure to count your fingers afterword.
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long term skeleton durability
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:59 pm 
Doll Advisor
Doll Advisor
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:44 pm
Posts: 939
Location: with Nele, Kiko and Ms. Mamamba StrangeLove in cyba's space
Cutting a doll in areas that are under tension or stress due to movement which all areas around joints are, is not a good idea unless absolutely necessary.
A glued wound is never as strong as the uncut flesh was so it will be likely that tearing occurs and old wounds open again.
I would recommend to get accustomed to the fact that she is "loose" now, which has some benefits as well.

My Nele (DS160) for example was loose right from the beginning but has the advantage of being hangable with hear head attached.
You get the best of both worlds, loose joints for easy handling and cuddling,
and with the optional hanging kit you can do basic photography too.
Not all poses of course, which is why I will get another doll with tight joints for more sophisticated projects and photography next year,
but Nele and I had a good run together and you can still look at some of what we have accomplished in Nele's thread (somewhere well hidden here on TDF ;) ).

So if we talk about further (cost effective) improvements to a dolls skeleton I would rather see Sanhui and others adding this feature so one can hang the doll with the head attached,
than just slightly improving the joints somehow (with nylon washers or what have you), because they will loosen no matter what you do, more or less, sooner or later.

bearhunter wrote:
Its funny you mention mild steel, as I have suspected its use no matter what manufacturers say. Most say stainless steel or titanium frame, and as a machinist, I know how cost prohibitive these materials can be. Human implant prosthetics have come a long way using ceramic and hybrid materials to get more than 10 year expected service, but if these concepts were used in dolls, well, the costs would be in the tens of thousands. I bought my dolls knowing they are TPE, and pot metal, and they will wear out, but if I get a year of pleasure, I think its a pretty reasonable price to pay. Kind of like television tech, it sucks when the old set breaks down, but ya get to up-grade to the latest tech, so, all is not lost!
Exactly, and there are still uses for broken or loosened dolls, you can either sell them, use them just as sex dolls (loose dolls are better for that anyway) and spare your new one with tight joints of all that “trouble” and use her just for photography or find a “final pose” for her like I do with my dolls after they have seen enough action for one lifetime and turn them into little art projects. :)



_____________________________
Life is a strange game: "The only winning move is not to play."
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long term skeleton durability
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:06 pm 
~ Member ~
~ Member ~
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:49 pm
Posts: 844
Location: North of Atlanta GA
@bearhunter; The gooseneck units that I have replaced and the palmplates as well on WM and JY dolls have thus far all indeed been stainless steel. Although the bolts were not! On my dolls Circa 2015 - 2016 they have Bienville washers on every joint that I have been into thus far! April is over 2 years and she still can free stand, as long as she is straight. But her hips are almost to the point where she will not be able to much longer.

@samara78; I will be curious to see what you find, as far as I know Sanhui does "what it seems like all are doing now" and welds the nut to the frame and then welds the bolt to the nut and to the frame! This is sad as it seems to be a clear attempt to make the dolls not user repairable! They simply do not understand the determination of Doll Enthusiasts!

@Mondoon; You would think that having springs or nylon washers in joints would be simply common sense!

@nukeno; Making joints that are user friendly to tighten or repair doesn't cost them anything! They do these things to make it more difficult to repair in the field in
hopes to sell more dolls!

@Jimbofod and Sofos; Really sorry to hear of Luna and Emma's conditions. Sanhui really does make some very beautiful dolls. I wish they would strongly consider
improving their joints! From what I have heard they can actually stand, at least for some short periods of time and they do have closed
sole feet, or am I mistaken on that point!

Wishing you the best!



_____________________________
CrazyCajun and the Girls

Making the world a doll friendlier place!
April's Gallery's: http://www.dollalbum.com/dollgallery/index.php?cat=14640
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long term skeleton durability
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:10 pm 
Forum Administrator
Forum Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:08 pm
Posts: 3469
Location: Somewhere in England
nukeno wrote:
A glued wound is never as strong as the uncut flesh was so it will be likely that tearing occurs and old wounds open again.


Not necessarily so. Hanna had a major knee operation performed by the manufacturer a month after she arrived. She came back with an invisible wound and after almost three years it's still invisible. She's also had repairs done by me and again there is no sign that there was a wound. These repairs were done between two and three years ago. So no old wounds have torn or opened up again after all this time.

CrazyCajun wrote:
@Mondoon; You would think that having springs or nylon washers in joints would be simply common sense!

This has already been implemented on all dolls made by Hanna's manufacturer. (Can't mention them in a Sanhui thread but you know who I mean.)



_____________________________
"Everybody's Got Something To Hide Except Me And My Monkey" - John Lennon

Super Softy Monkey Team Doll Force Go !!

Hanna's Thread
Hanna's Album
Hanna's CoverDoll Shoot
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long term skeleton durability
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:39 pm 
Doll Mentor
Doll Mentor
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:00 am
Posts: 1079
Location: Sweden
Thanks everyone that expressed concern.

I would like to make a few statements.

1. Of course I understand that a $2k doll won't be as durable as a $6k one.

2. That does not excuse anyone from performing product development and learn from past mistakes. If nylon washers increase the cost by $10 per doll and increases the lifespan by 50%?? then they should do it. If not welding the nuts and bolts and instead use red loctite that can only be loosed by warming then that does not cost them anything but will greatly increase the possibility of successful repairs. Etc etc.

@Samara. Very interested in your findings


@CrazyCajun, Yes, in the beginning she could easily stand with only a little support to not tip over. No damage to her feet either but I only had her standing for short periods at a time. I never got her standing in heels though. And yes, her feet are solid.

@Mondoon Thanks. The repair you suggest might or might not be plausible. And I'm not quite there yet ;)


My intention with this thread was simply to draw attention to an area that often seem overlooked. Skeleton joint lifespan wasn't even on my radar when I was doll shopping and I see very few posts about this in the forum overall. I don't think this is only a Sanhui problem...



_____________________________
Check out Emmas thread!
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long term skeleton durability
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:04 pm 
Vendor Affiliated
Vendor Affiliated

Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 8:02 pm
Posts: 1391
i do think some more critical reviews are needed. not hate dog piles or unfounded claims but points like this one Sofos made.

the more these sort of problems become known the more inclined they would be to fix them. i will add one more criticism to my sanhui doll...the head is wobbly and doesn't hold its left/right rotation to well. i fixed this with a 50cent clear silicon washer i had left over fr0m replacing the ones in the taps in my house. not a big deal i know...but a $2000+ doll that has a quick and easy 50cent fix is just something that irked me more than it should have



_____________________________
Any questions or just up for some conversation im often sitting in tdf chat chat/
or feel free to PM me
alternatively a new discord channel for dolls has been started by a member here
https://discordapp.com/invite/H3suzwe
 AIM Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long term skeleton durability
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:16 pm 
Doll Advisor
Doll Advisor
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:44 pm
Posts: 939
Location: with Nele, Kiko and Ms. Mamamba StrangeLove in cyba's space
Mondoon wrote:
Not necessarily so. Hanna had a major knee operation performed by the manufacturer a month after she arrived. She came back with an invisible wound and after almost three years it's still invisible. She's also had repairs done by me and again there is no sign that there was a wound. These repairs were done between two and three years ago. So no old wounds have torn or opened up again after all this time.
Well, your are right, if it is done correctly and / or professionally.
The manufacturer probably knows best how to fix its own dolls and what "glue" works best with the materials they use.
If you try it on your own, probably for the first time then chances are less good.
Also your Hanna is a 4woods and plays in another "league" so to speak. You can have her fixed in France and probably drive her there by yourself.
Sanhui's dolls aren't made to last as long and probably are not worth shipping them back to china (for a couple hundred $ back and forth) to get them fixed at the factory.

CrazyCajun wrote:
@nukeno; Making joints that are user friendly to tighten or repair doesn't cost them anything! They do these things to make it more difficult to repair in the field in hopes to sell more dolls!
It certainly costs them nothing if the customer would or could pay for it.
What you are probably not considering is that most of these dolls in the lower price segment aren't intended to be high-end dolls for middle-class customers on the European or US market but for the Asian market where the same dolls sell for a fraction of the price. The margins are small (especially with silicone dolls because the material is more expensive than TPE and they are more complicated to build) and even a couple of washers or a different manufacturing technique will add up and increase the price.

There is no 50ct fix, joints with nylon washers will loosen too or wont be as tight in the first place due to less friction. The same goes for ball joints. All kinds of joints need to be re-tightened with time to keep their strength unless you use different longer lasting materials in the first place like mentioned earlier.

What I would like to see (and 6Ye is already kinda doing it with their premium line and Sanhui could go this way too with all the additional options they are offering already) is that the customer can decide what he wants and gets and doesn't have to take just what he is offered.

Manufactures could add individual options like quality control, improved skeletons etc. for customers that are willing to pay for it. If that means that a worker has to spend a couple of extra hours on my doll, but I get a flawless one and exactly like I want it, I would be more than happy to pay extra for that kind of service.



_____________________________
Life is a strange game: "The only winning move is not to play."
 AIM Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long term skeleton durability
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:23 pm 
Doll God
Doll God
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 12:00 am
Posts: 11723
Location: UK and South of France
I've liked the look of Sanhui dolls but have known about this sort of problem for some time particularly since Samurai interviewed one of their ladies.

Some people occasionally send barbed comments in my direction as to why I like this or that particular brand of doll, but whilst Sanhui don't pay attention to this sort of problem, they're not going to be within my criteria for suggesting enthusiasm for them highly.

Best wishes

Harem


 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long term skeleton durability
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:36 pm 
Doll Elder
Doll Elder
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 2:33 am
Posts: 2406
Location: At Samara78's doll house somewhere in Michigan.....
I really feel for you Sofos. I have had a 145 for a year and a half and when I first got her she was tight for the most part. Her left side has always been looser than her right, as in her arms and legs on each side. Now, her left side is really loose and her right is still kinda tight. And the joint in her mid section that allows her to swivel left and right at the waist is totally loose now. Makes it kinda tough for her to sit straight especially since her left leg won't hold a sitting position, or any position for that matter.

I wish Sanhui would make their dolls so you can tighten their joints when they loosen. It is no biggie doing doll surgery when you need to as long as you take your time and have good attention to detail. And a little common sense helps as well.

I am not trying to slam Sanhui here either. I love my 145. I love her looks and her sculpt and her silicone feels very pleasant. She is a great first doll, except for the skeleton. If only it was made so you could tighten it up when needed. Wouldn't cost them any extra to make a doll that could have skeletal maintenance performed on it when needed. Other dolls in this price range or a little more expensive can be loosened or tightened when needed. Welding bolts in is not necessary and only makes it more difficult or impossible to repair or maintain.
Everybody's doll loosens in time, maybe not as fast as Sanhui, but at least most can get in there and tighten them up if they are so inclined and have the ability to do so.
I definitely would if I could.
Hopefully Sanhui pays attention to this thread and stops welding bolts in their skeletons because they make beautiful doll ladies who are very photogenic and its a damn shame you can't pose them for too long after you get them home.

Just my 2 cents.......

:glou:



_____________________________
Eve- Sanhui 145 Yessenia- DS 145+
Eves thread http://dollforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=261&t=70866
Eves dolls alive thread. viewtopic.php?f=113&t=96801
My doll cleaning thread viewtopic.php?f=7&t=77061
My doll drying thread http://dollforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=88297
Eve and Lana's thread viewtopic.php?f=11&t=84956
Yessenia's thread http://dollforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=143&t=82635
Eve, Lana and Yessenia's thread http://dollforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=88254
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Long term skeleton durability
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:01 pm 
Vendor Affiliated
Vendor Affiliated

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:32 am
Posts: 12768
No good way to do it.


Attachments:
20171216_190917.jpg
20171216_190917.jpg [ 1.45 MiB | Viewed 932 times ]

_____________________________
The empty orchestra still plays.
Bored, certified "plastic" surgeon. Serving the masses.
Dolls i have worked on. Real doll ,JM doll,teddybabes,Anime fabric doll,wm doll, d.s dolls, Diao shi, extravaganza air dolls, 1st pc, and candy8teen dolls.

Need work done? Feel free to send me a note.
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 Page 1 of 4 [ 58 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who Is Online

Users browsing this forum: Tobi and 12 guests

Chatting users:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum