Removing stain marks on TPE doll IS possible!

Stepford_CT · Post by **Stepford_CT** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:51 pm

Indigo20 wrote:@ VonRubber:

Thank you very much for showing the cleaning and care from Svetlana.
Perfect !
BTW, I do it exact in the same way like you, VonRubber, also the usage of the bath tub seat.

Svetlana looks always sexy !

@ tubee:

Why do you wanna use harming stuff first and afterwards stuff to avoid the negative effect ?
Do you wash your hands with acid and afterwards you are using moisturizing creme ?

@ Stepford-CT:

Copied from the safety data sheet from Scotchgard Fabric protector:

Scotchgard fabric protector.jpg
Acetone = Ketone = destructing of TPE
Isopropyl alcohol = dry out effect for TPE

> both effects are shown from my test

Petroleum naphta = lighter petrol = disolving TPE material

Damn, honestly meanwhile I'm really angry.
I'm not the "TPE care police".
Is it so hard to switch on the brain ?
Is it so hard to search for safety data sheets ?

What is going on, please tell me, what is going on here ?

Spray the CLOTHING with Scotchguard to keep the color from crocking onto the doll.
http://www.goodhousekeeping.com/home/cl ... -bleeding/

Indigo20 · Post by **Indigo20** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:13 pm

Stepford_CT:

Yes, I understand.

The lady talks about a cotton jacket.

Please understand, that your recommendation includes, that we spray a mixture of ketone, alcohol and lighter petrol on the sexy (black) under wear from our ladies.

How about the plastic clips ?
How about polyester ?
How about the color used for the under wear ?

Did you consider that with your recommendation ?

--------------------------

Can someone explain me the "solvent mentality for everything" of the TDF community ?

I wash the clothing for my dolls several times until no more color comes out.
Afterwards I roll a TPE insert inside the clothing and place a book for a bit pressure on it.
After 2 days I look what happened.

Therewith my dolls had never stains.

Stepford_CT · Post by **Stepford_CT** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:30 pm

Indigo20 wrote:Stepford_CT:

Yes, I understand.

The lady talks about a cotton jacket.

Please understand, that your recommendation includes, that we spray a mixture of ketone, alcohol and lighter petrol on the sexy (black) under wear from our ladies.

How about the plastic clips ?
How about polyester ?
How about the color used for the under wear ?

Did you consider that with your recommendation ?

--------------------------

Can someone explain me the "solvent mentality for everything" of the TDF community ?

I wash the clothing for my dolls several times until no more color comes out.
Afterwards I roll a TPE insert inside the clothing and place a book for a bit pressure on it.
After 2 days I look what happened.

Therewith my dolls had never stains.

I only use white or pink bra and panties and the pink nightie Camea came with. I plan to buy a fleshtone body stocking before I start putting clothing on her.
That's how I plan to solve the staining problem with my doll.

Indigo20 · Post by **Indigo20** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:53 pm

Stepford_CT, I understand that you like to help.
That is good.

But providing a recommendation needs facts and long term testing covering all aspects.

Be honest to yourself.
You wouldn't have given the recommendation for the fabric protector by knowing the ingredients of that mixture.
Now that you know what is comming with the fabric protector, would you use it with the clothing for your TPE doll ?

Stepford_CT, you know that it is not my intension to start an argument with you.

Please see it also from my point of view.

My message box is overflowed every day with a lot of questions.
Most of the questions are answered questions.
I'm treated like a free hotline and some are calling me the TPE doctor.
I don't want to be in such a position.

And looking through that forum I see

"We need product X to spray on our dolls for preventing stains."
"We need product Y to spray on clothings that it is not causing stains."
"We need product Z for cleaning and desinfection, no matter if it is harming the love dolls."

Stepford_CT, honestly, I'm shocked.
I'm asking myself what is going on.
It is so complicated. So strange.

Stepford_CT · Post by **Stepford_CT** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:56 pm

Do you have any proof that Scotchguard will come off of the clothing and onto the doll? You are looking at the ingredients and thinking of them as wet when in fact the Scotchguard is dry after the garment is given a chance to dry after application.
I believe that if the doll manufacturers find a way to seal the doll's skin, not only will oiling become unncecessary but also staining will no longer be an issue.

tubee · Post by **tubee** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:01 pm

Indigo20 wrote:@ tubee:

Why do you wanna use harming stuff first and afterwards stuff to avoid the negative effect ?
Do you wash your hands with acid and afterwards you are using moisturizing creme ?

Vinegar is an acid. Water w/ a pH <7 is acidic. I can safely wash my hands w/ both. People wash their car despite knowing that the action diminishes the wax and yet they still wash their car knowing they will at some point need to wax their car to maintain an appropriate level of wax.

Is the 'drying out' effect of iso-alcohol irreversible? Is there an irreversible effect even though mineral oil is applied after using iso-alcohol? Is 5 minutes sufficient time to generate irreversible effects? These are valid questions. If you mean to say it's possibly irreversible and is therefore not worth the risk I can understand that position.

Another question. Some TDF members have been using DAWN dish soap. The manufacturers advertise its grease cutting qualities. What would you advise about using DAWN dish soap?

Stepford_CT · Post by **Stepford_CT** » Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:54 pm

tubee wrote:
Indigo20 wrote:@ tubee:

Why do you wanna use harming stuff first and afterwards stuff to avoid the negative effect ?
Do you wash your hands with acid and afterwards you are using moisturizing creme ?
Vinegar is an acid. Water w/ a pH <7 is acidic. I can safely wash my hands w/ both. People wash their car despite knowing that the action diminishes the wax and yet they still wash their car knowing they will at some point need to wax their car to maintain an appropriate level of wax.

Is the 'drying out' effect of iso-alcohol irreversible? Is there an irreversible effect even though mineral oil is applied after using iso-alcohol? Is 5 minutes sufficient time to generate irreversible effects? These are valid questions. If you mean to say it's possibly irreversible and is therefore not worth the risk I can understand that position.

Another question. Some TDF members have been using DAWN dish soap. The manufacturers advertise its grease cutting qualities. What would you advise about using DAWN dish soap?

Water is also an acid with a ph of 7; H2O. All acids begin as H2 in their chemical formula; bases end in OH.

Seeking a solution to crocking isn't isolated to dolls; they are also seeking remedies in the automotive industry which also uses TPE.
http://marketplace.yet2.com/app/list/wa ... 3726&abc=0
Seeking: Technology to prevent denim dye transfer (crocking)

Description

Overview:
Leather and vinyl automotive seating trim covers can be stained by contact with denim. We are seeking technology to prevent this from happening.

Your proposed technology should have a minimum Technology Readiness Level of 4: Your technology has been validated in a laboratory environment.

Background:
"Crocking" refers to molecules of dye rubbing off a material and transferring to another material.

Denim -- even well-washed denim -- transfers dye to both leather and vinyl seating materials used in automobiles. The effect is more pronounced in light-colored seating materials, but all leather and vinyl materials are affected by the transfer.

We currently coat our seating materials, but the coating is insufficient to prevent crocking, and we have not yet found a satisfactory alternative.

Constraints:
Must meet test procedure GMW3402 code M with a required score of 8-10, which is a standardized test to determine the cleanability of materials that have been exposed to specific soils, and to resist damage.
Must be a water-based coating. The leather industry will not consider a solvent-based coating.

Possible solution areas:
Leather processing changes.
New coatings.
Changes to vinyl formulations.

Publish Date
05/19/2016

Desired Timeframe
Within 12 months

Field Of Use and Intended Application
Vehicle industry.

Desired Outcome
We would like to find a method for processing or coating or formulating seating trim covers that will resist crocking, or at the least make the dye molecules easier to remove.

Discussions (0 items)
No discussions have been created for this TechNeed.

tubee · Post by **tubee** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:07 am

My questions are about the hardening effects of iso-alcohol use.

Is the 'drying out' effect of iso-alcohol irreversible? Is there an irreversible effect even though mineral oil is applied after using iso-alcohol? Is 5 minutes sufficient time to generate irreversible effects? These are valid questions.

hansdampf21 · Post by **hansdampf21** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:33 am

From my understanding, 2 major questions arise:

- can TPE or the textiles / fabrics be coated to prevent staining?

There is no method of sealing the TPE. If is not recommended to seal TPE, because it needs to 'breathe'.
The fine pores are part of the material consistency and structure and it's elasticity.

Coating the textiles perhaps sounds like a good idea.
What 'Scotchgard' does, is to help washing out the staining colors out of the fabric completely, AND it coats the fabric with an unknown 'Urethane' based connection.
It uses Acetone, Alcohol, Naphta and Carbondioxide to remove the staining colors. All three are supposed and well known for removing capabilities of oils and oil affected substances. The fabric is to be sprayed with the product and then washed.
The coating remains on the fabric and helps to keep it soft and resistant. We don't know, if this Urethane based connection is compatible with TPE!

- can Isopropylalcohol be used on TPE without harming it?

Why would you use Alcohol on TPE? For disinfecting purposes?
Maybe the effect of dissolving out mineral oils will not be too harsh, if you only use it shortly.
Maybe you could reverse the effect by applying mineral oil afterwards.
But as Indigo said, why would you at first harm something and then try to reverse the effect, if this is not necessary?
If TPE is saturated with mineral oil, it would be resistant against fluids, dirt, and even germs.
To fumigate TPE you could also use oil-free MakeUp remover. It doesn't contain alcohol.
Or use a mild anti-bacterial soap.

tubee · Post by **tubee** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:26 am

The question is is there actually any harm done by alcohol if the TPE is oiled afterwards? Because quite possibly there is no harm. That's why I'm inquiring. I've seen via the photographs what happens after 3 hours of soaking in an alcohol compound resulting in the penetration of the TPE. The scenario I propose is different. Is there any penetration with a brief simple dabbing?

My doll seems to exudes oil. I have noted stains on pillowcases. Am I correct in thinking there is oil on the surface of the doll? Is the oil I'm dabbing away already separated from the TPE compound? Excuse me if 'compound' is not the proper term.

I have another question linked to my original questions. Indigo recommends oiling once a month. Can one oil their doll too much? For example, if a weekly cleaning resulted in a weekly oiling would the beneficial aspects of oiling become detrimental?

Indigo20 · Post by **Indigo20** » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:49 am

I. TPE in general:

We are talking about Jinshan TPE.

Doll House 168 TPE is similar but acts a bit different.
Doll Forever (D4E) TPE is completely different.
For both TPE versions a test report is in process.

II. Jinshan TPE condition:

The Jinshan TPE is made of mineral oil and can be saturated with mineral oil in addition.
Therewith Jinshan TPE dolls of the doll owners do have a different conditions.

III. Alcohol is harming Jinshan TPE:

Alcohol is available in different versions, mixed in ratio with water and / or within strong desinfection fluids.
Isopropyl alcohol is available in different ratio with water.

Alcohol dissolves the molecular structure of mineral oil.

The following happens within Jinshan TPE:

At first the alcohol dissolves the mineral oil (structure) that is inside the TPE.
Second it dissolves the mineral oil components of the TPE structure (soft block copolymere)

First state: A dry out process is started
Second state: Small TPE particles are washed out
Third state: TPE becomes hard, the softness that the mineral oil provided within the copolymere structure is destroyed and cannot be restored

Depending on the condition of the Jinshan TPE doll, the above mentioned situations can happen very quick or a bit slower.

Strong desinfection fluids with alcohol are very aggresive to Jinshan TPE, please look here:

: Desinfection.jpg (39.05 KiB) Viewed 5726 times

The same is for dish washer in general.
Normal / soft dish washer does that slowly, dish washer with "formula" does it quick.

IV. No recommendation for alcohol:

Alcohol is a harming substance for Jinshan TPE.
That is a fact.

A person, that is recommending alcohol for cleaning and desinfection does not know the condition of the doll from that person, that is listening to that recommendation.

And it is also not possible to give a recommendation like:
"If your doll is in good condition and saturated with mineral oil, well, than you can use a bit of alcohol, if your doll is in bad condition, you shouldn't use alcohol."

After that you are having a discussion about:
"I did this and that with my doll, so, what is her condition, can I use alcohol or not ?"
"And if, what alcohol should I use, what ratio mix with water do I need ?"
"I would like to use product X that has alcohol, is that recommended for my doll and can you tell me the condition of my doll and how many times can I use product X without harming my doll ?"

That is exactly what happens.
And that is the reason why I do not recommend alcohol for Jinshan TPE dolls.

And in addition:
Alcohol is not necessary !

- For cleaning: soft soap and water
- For removing stronger dirt: MakeUp remover fluid without alcohol / baby oil with mineral oil
- For removing stains: No solvents, thinners, solvent compounds > I created a stain remover for that
- For desinfection: hydrogen peroxide 3%
- For care: Mineral oil products

@tubee:

I hope all of your questions are answered.

TPE cannot be over-saturated with mineral oil.
It stops absorbation, if the point of saturation is reached.
I made tests with TPE pieces in different size.
It took 2 days with a total of 12-15 mineral oil treatments for comming to that point.
And now see the amount of TPE that a TPE doll has on its body, arms and legs.

My TPE dolls never produced oil leaks on clothing, bed sheets, blankets and chairs.
For clearing the situation that your TPE doll is producing oil leaks on the pillowcase, we have to dive in more deep what you have done with your doll.
But that would be a seperate topic.

tubee · Post by **tubee** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:00 pm

Indigo, Thank you for the time and thought you devoted to answering my questions. There are other products readily available to do the job so alcohol isn't required.

Just so the community is clear dish washing liquid which advertises grease cutting properties should be avoided?

Another question: Manufacturers have recommended using mild detergent instead of soap. What are your thoughts? Is the reason detergent is recommended bcz detergent is less likely to leave a residue?

This was my initial thought with alcohol; it evaporates leaving little residue. If soap leaves a residue does the residue penetrate TPE? Does oil that penetrates TPE carry soap or other residues with it into the TPE? These last 2 questions are not essential to doll care. I'm only curious to understand a little of the chemical and physical dynamics involved.

Concerning the oil stains resulting from my doll. To be more specific, I left my doll seated in a fabric chair (perhaps 6 weeks I can't be sure). I placed a towel on the back of the chair and a pillowcase on the seat of the chair to separate her from the chair's fabric. One day I decided to replace the pillowcase. This is when I noticed a stain on the chair which mimicked the outline of my doll. I assumed it was an oil stain. Common belief at the time was that TPE exudes oil for a period of time once it is released from the manufacturing mold. In other words, a fresh doll will leak oil. I have since checked the seat cushion and the stain is gone so I don't know what occurred.

Again thank you for your time. The community is fortunate to have your passion for chemistry and for dolls.

Stepford_CT · Post by **Stepford_CT** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:05 pm

I know this will cause debate, but hopefully a constructive one.

I contacted PolyOne in Illinois (USA) and inquired about TPE. http://www.polyone.com/products/thermop ... r/tpe-faqs

I was transferred to Mike in Atlanta GA (USA) and asked him about TPE, specifically TPE sex dolls and asked him whether the TPE sex dolls required monthly applications of mineral oil. Mike's response was, "It wouldn't hurt, but it wouldn't help." He went on to say he had never heard of customers making regular applications of mineral oil to TPE and doubted it had any benefit. He said the main enemy of TPE was heat and low humidity.

I also called S&E Specialty Polymers in Lunenberg, MA (USA) http://www.sespoly.com/products/tpe-the ... lastomers/
I spoke to an polymer engineer and inquired about TPE sex dolls. He said the dolls have a high concentration of mineral oil in their composition. He went on to say that the mineral oil in the TPE dolls does NOT dry out or leak out and that applying mineral oil to the doll would do nothing beneficial unless you wanted your doll to be slippery. He, as well as Mike, had never heard of applying mineral oil to TPE. When I asked him if it was beneficial, detrimental, or a waste of time to do so, he said "waste of time".

I have a third engineer I left a message with at RTP located in Winona, WI (USA) https://www.rtpcompany.com/products/elastomer/
I left a message inquring about the properties of TPE.

The reason I called these engineers is to get some feedback from engineers who are actually involved in the TPE manufacturing process/business. I understand there are variations on TPE formulations; however, my curiosity is such that I had to ask "outsiders" about the care we are providing our dolls.

hansdampf21 · Post by **hansdampf21** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:06 am

Did you tell them, that mineral oil soaks into the TPE and makes it softer and even more tensile?
Did you ask them, if dry friction is bad for TPE and if it could help coating the TPE with vaseline to prevent that friction?
No?
This TPE mineral oil care thing is so new and uncommon, that you won't find any manufacturer who knows this AND would recommend it.
Unless he is a doll owner himself.
Nobody else would even think about this.

BTW: love doll TPE is completely different to industry-grade TPE.
There are many different flavors and the properties depend on each specific recipe.

Stepford_CT · Post by **Stepford_CT** » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:34 am

hansdampf21 wrote:Did you tell them, that mineral oil soaks into the TPE and makes it softer and even more tensile?
Did you ask them, if dry friction is bad for TPE and if it could help coating the TPE with vaseline to prevent that friction?
No?
This TPE mineral oil care thing is so new and uncommon, that you won't find any manufacturer who knows this AND would recommend it.
Unless he is a doll owner himself.
Nobody else would even think about this.

BTW: love doll TPE is completely different to industry-grade TPE.
There are many different flavors and the properties depend on each specific recipe.

The both engineers say the mineral oil WILL NOT soak in or have ANY EFFECT on the TPE. The mineral oil is evaporating into the air off the surface of the doll.
These engineers have chemical and physics degrees; surely they would know.