Time to move on

[haremlover]

I think that manufacturers are valuing the opportunity of a private dispute area. My advice is to use it.

Best wishes

Harem

[Nescio50]

I think that manufacturers are valuing the opportunity of a private dispute area. My advice is to use it.

Best wishes

Harem

For all to know, we revived a two sections in which manufacturers and vendors are able to discuss issues, concerns, ideas among themselves.
We are also offering to use our 'dispute corner' to discuss business-2-business issues between those involved only -but for us to mediate we need those involved to accept mediation.

[Dollstudio]

We decided to let you and other sellers have your complaints […]

Thanks, but hmm… maybe others, but not mine. These are still not visible:

https://www.dollforum.com/forum/viewtop ... &e=1410766

viewtopic.php?f=227&t=88933&p=1155960&e=1155960

[…] 'dispute corner' to discuss business-2-business issues […] but for us to mediate we need those involved to accept mediation.

Since the Sanhui dispute won't re-opened, may I conclude that Sanhui does not accept mediation? At least that would be a step forward - if I can't get these nonsense business terms fixed, I can forget about the factory and their attempts to take customer orders hostage to force me to sign these nonsense business terms. If this is the case, I could finally resume with Sanhui and get their dolls from wholesale.

Sandro

[Anung Un Rama]

I Have worked with SANHUI, and generally they are pretty accommodating, as long as you want to trade is greenbacks. This provides economic margin offset performance for the Yuan conversion, especially with the strength of the greenback increasing, thus they piggyback the ride, to insulate against the new US?China trade sanctions and tarriffs.

OK, so works if a US based vendor, but sure , I see the issues for EU countries and the UK with Euros and pounds sterling. I agree SANHUI international marketting does need to consider ALL global markets when requesting contracts that require a one size fits all approach regulated by the Chinese authorities, when clearly one size can not fit all, for many reasons in addition to the economical currencies I discussed before.

I also agree, that a maker (any maker, not just this label) should fulfill any order they accept, (as acceptance is an interim contract agreement IMHO, for at least a one off procurement) irrespective of requirement to sign a contract that does not always fit all, as my understanding of the contract is based off a MRRP for ALL vendors, and also entitles each broker/vendor to an exclusive discounted rate to procure items either in bulk or forecast, but again like I said, certain currency only for trade, can certainly influence margins.

I also see this with my instrument parts sourcing and custom instrument projects, if China would trade in AUD, I would save 20 percent on overheads and currency conversion margin losses and fees.

Just some other things to consider, more so for the punters, as No doubt Sandro is all over this!

Anung

[Dollstudio]

Hi,

our dog is still breathing. Some days are good, others are tough. She has still appetite and shows no signs of suffering, but it's hard for her to get up without help. We split the day into dog care around the clock; when she barks we bring her water or put her onto the litter box, or we try a short walk. Everything is pretty ambivalent. We hand-feed her with mashed food, but sometimes she still chews small bones. Sometimes she just sleeps peacefully, but sometimes she is alert and quite demanding. The vet says that this dog does not yet want to move on - but we could put her down anytime now. Playing destiny without urgent need is a recurring struggle every day. So far we have decided against taking her life. But it's not easy to figure out what is the right thing to do.

Her kennel name is Christmas Comet. There is no way to foretell when this white comet will go out.

@mandos: Yes, you are right. It is confusing what is about dog or doll. Both topics are intermingled, and some things I jot down about our dog somehow apply to the doll issue as well. The situation we are facing here on TDF is similarily ambivalent.


On one hand, we have verbal pledges and a set of rules and guidelines. This applies, for example,
to obligations for manufacturer to bear the risk of shipping losses and shipping damages;
to the promised B2B arbitration;
to the promised toleration of manufacturer suspensions.

On the other hand, we have actions which deviate antithetically from these verbal pledges, rules and guidelines. The manufacturer obligations are de facto not enforced, and my posts about violations are still unpublished; my requested B2B arbitrations has not been re-opened, and my aforementioned suspension posts are still not visible for the public (or myself). But other vendors have posted supensions, and other vendors are still allowed to promote non TDF-accredited manufacturers.

So what we are facing is some kind of a two-rule regime where rules and guidelines are applied to some parties but not to others; where some privileged parties receive protection which seems to overrule some of the guidelines which are applied to other parties.

Phrased differently, there are significant inconsistencies about what is enforced and what is tolerated.


For me, the situation is like so.

I have an obligation toward my customers. Of course. This is unchanged.
My TDF-accredited suppliers do not have an obligation towards me.
That is new.
I have no means anymore to enforce my TDF-accredited suppliers to deliver the item I ordered.
That is new as well.

For non-TDF sales, I can handle a non-delivery differently. E.g. I can offer a replacement from another manufacturer.

But on TDF, I am required to deliver the ordered item, no matter if my supplier delivers or not.
Suppliers can now enforce any absurd terms of trade by taking orders hostage.
No matter what has been verbally promised, my posts which document issues like this have been removed and are not being restored. So de facto I do not have any leverage anymore.

What happened repeatedly is that certain TDF-accredited suppliers did not deliver the items I ordered. There was a shipping loss, several SNAD dolls, and several DOA deliveries. The normal procedure would be that the shipper sends a replacement. That's international trade law. Their shipping agent, their responsibility. This has now changed as well.

Typically, Chinese suppliers want you to pay for a replacement in full. Sometimes they offer a modest discount of something like $80 on a $2,000 purchase. That has always been inacceptable. If you have good relations with a certain supplier, he 'only' wants you to pay freight costs for the replacement. Thats around $350-$450 when using their shipping agents. Really good suppliers comply with international trade law and regulate compensation with their shipper instead of charging their customers. All sellers on TDF should be really good suppliers, but they just ain't.

Suppliers have an interest in good packacking and carefull freight carriers, as long as shipping is their risk.
If it's not a risk for them, they have no motivation for proper packaging or careful freight carriers anymore.
Actually, if they don't bear the risk of shipping losses or damages, their motivation changed into the opposite.
They get a new sale.
The new formula for supplier will be: Shipping losses and shipping damages are good as it doubles the turnover.

This can not be desirable.

The bitchy part in all this madness is that TDF-accredited vendors can now be blackmailed at will.
Suppliers can now charge whatever they want as TDF-accredited vendors have an obligation fo fulfill the order toward their customers.

The balance is lost.

I have no idea yet how to deal with that.

The only thing which is now quite clear that it can not go on for me on TDF as it was before.

Sandro

[Maviarab]

Thanks for the update Sandro...having been there many times before, you have my best wishes.

[Nescio50]

I'm a bit confused about some in Sandro's post. There are facts I like to share. Since we announced to be willing to do B2B mediation, no vendor or manufacturer asked us to start mediation. Also Sandro hasn't asked us. Maybe some time ago, but not since we announced to be willing to try this. In one situation we actually offered mediation, but both manufacturer and vendor declined this offer.

Sandro is saying that for non-TDF sales he's able to act differently on non-delivery. I don't know why. Our first priority is the customer. If the customer accepts a replacement from another manufacturer, there is no reason no rule nothing that TDF would have against it.

Sandro is saying that "My TDF-accredited suppliers do not have an obligation towards me." Why not, I guess that you have a contract with them. What has changed? Especially what has been changed in TDF's role in this. Let me be clear, we did not change any rule in regards to vendors or manufacturers over the last months.

Our only change is that we are less strict on Rule 10 in regards to B2B issues. Also we revived a private section on TDF accessible to all the vendors and manufacturers to discuss issues, share worries, anything related to be a seller on TDF. It is hardly used. We offer the platform, we offer a private section and we offer mediation. But we are not a court room, we have no jurisdiction, all we can handle is what happens on the forum, and mediate for issues outside the forum.

[maddmatter70]

Just as a very casual observer here, wouldn't the items by Sandro be best arbitrated out of the public eye? I hope that does not come across as crass, I mean if all parties are truely into customer satisfaction, I would think customer comfort should rank highly to all.

[haremlover]

I've shared with Sandro a bit of my experience with Chinese suppliers of solar electricity equipment and it's not a lot different to dolls.

But in respect of a few manufacturers round here there are a few of us without commercial interests with good relations across the board with different manufacturers. A number of us expressing the same opinions are capable of armtwisting a manufacturer or two.

Your view of TDF is perhaps a bit like the British view of the EU. There are some who want to leave but there are others who accept that whilst the EU might not be perfect, we'd be a good deal worse off without it.

It's for this sort of reason that TDF has my full support and I urge you to work it rather than to leave it.

Best wishes

Harem

[Nescio50]

Just as a very casual observer here, wouldn't the items by Sandro be best arbitrated out of the public eye? I hope that does not come across as crass, I mean if all parties are truely into customer satisfaction, I would think customer comfort should rank highly to all.

That is what we always prefer. Public discussions like this one will only have losers. It will need silent/private diplomacy to solve all the damage. TDF Management is willing to discuss issues in private, but those involved should also be willing to start such talks.

[Dollstudio]

Sorry, but I have to disagree.

[…] we did not change any rule in regards to vendors or manufacturers over the last months.

What actually has changed is that (at least) the two aforementioned supension posts (this one and that one) have been deleted and remain deleted, in contrast to what has been pledged about these guidelines. I can neither view nor edit these unpublished posts, so it is a bit ridiculous if I'm being asked to cut off the facts and just leave a short note. I do not keep backups of my TDF posts. Edit what, or make a completely new post, messing up the timeline?

Since we announced to be willing to do B2B mediation, no vendor or manufacturer asked us to start mediation. Also Sandro hasn't asked us.

Actually I did in #p1428811.

I guess the answer is implied in #p1431325 ("[…] we need those involved to accept mediation") - the other party does not participate.

Which leads back to the core issue of the lost balance between manufacturers on one side and end vendors and customer on the other side.

Also we revived a private section on TDF accessible to all the vendors and manufacturers to discuss issues, share worries, anything related to be a seller on TDF. It is hardly used.

It actually is used by Jeff and me, with occasional comments from TDF management. Those who do not take part are the manufacturers. Brash asked a question with an own issue, and no other manufacturer bothered to participate since Dec 2nd. No reply, just nothing.

Which is exactly my point. If the other party can refuse to cooperate or even refuse to communicate without consequences, other leverage is required. Or, to use Harem's term, some armtwisting.

Yes, TDF is not a court, but TDF is not powerless. Actually it's quite the opposite.

To retreat to the comfortable "we are just a platform" point of view is exactly the response I got from the so called "Alibaba trade insurance" when it turned out to be worthless. They open a dispute, but nothing else happens because they consider themself to be "just a platform".

I think this is not good enough. At least it prevents me from relying on this nonsense "Alibaba trade insurance" again.

My wish for TDF is that it will find the strength to distinguish itself clearly from Alibaba. With words and with actions.

Sandro

[Nescio50]

Dear Sandro, let's not fight on words, let's stop throwing mud.

If you want to discuss shipping issues and the way some in the supply chain are acting -or any other issues-, please do so in the manufacturer/vendor section. On many points we will support you. You are right, we aren't powerless. But it needs an open discussion. It needs parties who are seeking for solutions, for future agreements. We will try to bring parties together, we will try to keep talks positive, to give direction. Our sole aim is to improve this industry. You can be among it, even be an initiator, or move on ...

[Pron]

All issues fixed or preparing to move on?