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WARNING: To buyers of young looking dolls

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Re: WARNING: To buyers of young looking dolls

Post by violette_22 »

Cup size alone doesn't really determine what age a doll might represent to authorities, legal or medical experts. Plenty of adult women have short stature and a very small bust yet still are plainly adult looking. It's a combination that's going to make a difference and the face structure does change in humans post-puberty along with bone structure especially in the hips and ribs, regardless of height. Unfortunately, it's incredibly difficult with a few configurations to convince people who are accustomed to looking at human standards to accept some dolls to represent an adult even though to us doll folks, gamers and anime fans it's going to look on par with our favorite character. That's the tricky part because we all should be able to enjoy whatever we like however we choose but we must comply to local laws and community standards on the forum. Your doll might look great and just like an old gf 18+ to you, but to others it might raise some red flags. The owners and operators of TDF must look out for themselves first. In some regions, some doll configurations and images of such could mean a great risk including huge fines and/or loss of freedom. We all care about our dolls quite a bit, but in a community, we need to look out for each other as well. I have zero doubt anyone is doing any less than their best effort regarding the TDF ownership and staff. They take a lot of risks and spend a lot of time so the rest of us can have fun.

A large cup size certainly can help an argument, but so does an extreme fantasy stature, realistic adult stature, facial structure and the owner's presentation. When I say owner's presentation that's up to us as an owner. This can include things like avoiding skirts that look like school uniforms, pigtails, pastel colors, and the use of props like teddy bears, back packs and canopy beds when we make photos of our dolls. For some dolls, you could use all these things and it still wouldn't change their 'age', but for a lot of dolls, this would look questionable or very bad.

What you are able to buy and what you are able to share on the forum can be two different things. My advice is to become familiar with your region's laws before buying. It helps to buy from a vendor in your own country. If you want to share photos of your doll on the forum, make sure it meets the standards. Sex dolls certainly are the focus enemy of some, and some of those people may very well have good intentions but they are very uninformed, uncaring or have their own agendas to push. For example, in some search engines 'the doll forum' will bring up anything but this site and instead, show a lot of negative articles about sex dolls.

For those of us that are fortunate enough to live under current US law, we are able to buy, own and enjoy whatever doll we like currently. Not everyone is so lucky and that could change if the CREEPER bill passes (I hope not!). However, we must be responsible regardless of what we own, enjoy and where we live for the sake of public image. Not fair and not fun, I know. That may include keeping our owner photos to ourselves or not making any. We should also be mindful that at any point in time, anyone can come in here, take screen shots and publish them anywhere for any reason. This is very cruel, but it's happened before and it will happen again and again. I will post a link below so you may all see for yourselves. This upsets me greatly, but other people that don't care about us or how our dolls help us be happy will not hesitate to use us and what we post against us if it's to any benefit to them. Anyone with an e-mail address and internet access can do this including professional trolls like Kathleen Richardson, law-making experts and the press.

It would be an undertaking, but the only advice I have is to go through each TDF approved manufacturer and one by one grade each head and body individually with something like Green light, Yellow light and Red light where the Green is good to go, the Yellow must need caution in presentation and the Red is much too difficult to represent 18+ publicly on the forum. It would not mean an owner of such doll is a bad person, or their doll is icky, but the difficulty in appeasing authorities would be too difficult. It would also be nice for new people to have some point to easily reference what their national laws have on the books for imports. I'm unaware that Abyss makes any doll or configuration that would not pass Canadian customs, but I don't know for sure. That's an example. I hope some might consider the time worth it to save our doll-loving brethren the risk of loosing their money or getting into a legal issue. I wouldn't ask for something if I wasn't willing to do it myself, but that's not my place. I don't want anyone to get into trouble or feel bad about their dolls. Dolls are suppose to be for happiness and fun, whatever your favorite flavor may be.

Here is the link I mentioned above, it's a bit older, but it's an example of what other people will continue to do. Don't look at it if you are likely to be upset by a troll. It is very mean, so you have been warned.
http://www.somethingawful.com/weekend-w ... etition/1/
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Re: WARNING: To buyers of young looking dolls

Post by NamRepaid »

My two cents, I understand The TDF's stance as a for profit and for the promotion of sex doll enthusiasts interests forum and agree in the need to err on the side of caution in allowing questionable doll photos here. As in any witch hunt the criteria for damming the accused is subjective, "if she weighs the same as a duck..." The face shape charts are nice but Asians and some others have rounder adult skull structures. I guess Teddybabes with their round heads will be banned too but DS Eva will be back in. I jest, a bit, this is a difficult subject with no clear answers and I know my "Doll Sweet Mini ???" thread had some small part in bringing this discussion to the surface. I have no desire to be caught up in a witch hunt and so heed the advice given crushing my hopes of owning a work of art such as a DS Mini Eva. My dolls Amy and Suzie are "company" and while have been used sexually it is not as often as one might assume, as stated by others in a DS Mini thread it is my dolls "presence" that makes them great to have around more than any thing else.

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Re: WARNING: To buyers of young looking dolls

Post by midiman »

ACLU1st wrote:Manufacturers should just start putting a "this item represents a female/male/transexual/elf/alien above the age of 18" certificate with each sexually functional naked doll sculpture... They do it with porn videos "all performers are 18 or over".
Unlike real human beings who can provide proof of age via birth certificates', dolls will be scrutinized by how old they look and not by any certificate or statement by a manufacturer as to the age they are suppose to represent.

That said, authorities have removed ads from distribution because they felt the (legally of age) actor or actress looked under age for the the product being advertised. So even with young looking adult actors appearance can exempt them from specific jobs.

I am really pleased with how this thread is going and the support being shown. The most important thing here is to protect our community image. TDF has been pushing to make love dolls more mainstream since 2009 and the industry and TDF have grown exponentially. There will always be those who are offended by love dolls but society as a whole has become more accepting of them over the last decade. However, TDF needs to run a clean shop for those opponents of love dolls who would take any opportunity to put us in a bad light. Child-like dolls would do that. Also if I did own one given current global sentiments the last thing I would want to do is post publicly about it as I am sure that would put me on someone's list for further investigation.
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Re: WARNING: To buyers of young looking dolls

Post by nasty_ »

Hello!

Ist there a list of dolls which are not allowed to talk about / to link / to show in this forum?


Thanks!
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Re: WARNING: To buyers of young looking dolls

Post by Anung Un Rama »

Generally, Staff and Management are looking at NOT blanket banning dolls based on Model and Maker.

We are more looking at compliance to the image represented and how the doll is presented.

See these guidelines.

https://www.dollforum.com/forum/viewtop ... 4#p1248194

As for the current listings of Banned dolls, Staff have a quick reference guide for further evaluation.

Unfortunately, I will not and can not share it here (until management authorises me to post it), as once again, we do not wish to blackban any doll model, purely based on its potential for age restriction non compliance, so....once again, it comes down to what would a reasonable non doll savy person find objectionable based on the perceived age of the dolly in the image represented.

If you have any doubt, even 0.00000001%, then chances are the image may not pass scruitiny.

NOTE again...I refer to IMAGE, not Doll make and model.

Anung
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Re: WARNING: To buyers of young looking dolls

Post by Mr Franz »

Bottom line. Age, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. No amount of preset rules and guidelines for what images can and cannot be posted is going to change that. Someone, somewhere is still going to perceive even compliant images as underage and complain. Then what? Tighter rules? More stringent regulations?

I can respect TDF for trying to remain aboveboard and to protect it's revenue, but I fear this will ultimately have the opposite effect by alienating more and more members. Perhaps something to think about.

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Re: WARNING: To buyers of young looking dolls

Post by violette_22 »

Medical people use a set of guidelines called the Tanner Stages. There is an actual science behind determining an age just from physical landmarks. This is why one configuration of doll will look just fine with head X but then you put head Z on it and it looks really bad, to the point that no amount of makeup is going to trick anyone that knows what they are looking for with certain landmarks. Makeup and wigs cannot change that. Bone structure changes and it varies a bit differently between Asians and Westerners for example, but the landmarks will still be there. This is also why laws are really unfair because some potential buyers may simply like a certain aesthetic like chibi style just because they like a video game or an anime and suddenly find themselves trying to defend that logic to a bunch of legal authorities in their home Western country and it's very doubtful that will work. Dolls that are extreme fantasy (non human), extremely stylized (cartoonish, think Teddy Babes) or anthropomorphic may or may not need to suit these guidelines.

Legal authorities have strong precedents to back up some of their stances when it comes to certain appearances of some dolls simply because of so many people being investigated for illegal media and a doll being discovered during an investigation. That link cannot be denied, there's ample evidence to back it up and it's very unfortunate for the lot of us as those people are the rare exception. However, that's the public perception and the concern is understandable if that's what people see. They don't see us carefully shopping for just the right wig, taking care to keep dust off our dolls when we display them and they don't know how nice it is to come home and not be really so alone. Nope, what a lot of people see are actual criminals and when it's featured in the media when such a bust is made, the cameras and talk is all about this doll, usually a very young looking female one that's right on par with the criminal's favorite flavor of illegal media. Simply tolerating a doll that might look this way is going to look like we tolerate this behavior to the outside. It could even mean that criminals could be using this forum to organize a ring to exchange illegal media. It would be easy to identify individuals that may have these interests if changes are not made. It's a huge conflict but in the end, we must put our best foot forward and carry on in the best light. If anyone is feeling alienated, and it's very bothersome to them, then perhaps the best and healthiest course of action would be to seek a therapist. A professional that would try to 'take away' your doll isn't a good one, a good one will see that it's important to you and help you feel better and gain better logic to enjoy your life. Danielle Knafo is a leading authority and has published work reflecting this particular area of study.

Anyone can create their own forum if you don't like this one for any reason. Just like how anyone member can be banned for any reason. If we're here, it's because we agree to play by the rules. When I myself wanted to learn about owners of some very taboo dolls, I found another forum for those people. I learned that in at least one case for one individual, having a doll helped him cope with some urges that would have done a lot of damage if acted upon. Some of the other members of that particular forum were upset to find out they would be unable to buy one for themselves, because of regional laws, so they may try a similar coping strategy. Not nice of me to admit, but I wanted to know for myself and that's how I learned. Studies are nice, field research is worth more. What the forum should do for their best interest is one thing, what the psychiatric community and legal community should do is another. TDF is to help make dolls more mainstream and for owners to be social. It provides a lot of information to anyone interested to learn, for any reason. No one that makes public appearances and earns a living from this site would want any association with anything that looks sinister or illegal. We should support the decisions of the forum or leave. They have to make very hard choices, but they are doing it with the best interest of themselves and all of us in the end. It's not about personal freedom, we can do that on our own, it's about community standards. The forum owners take a lot of legal responsibility to keep this forum operational, we as members are only responsible for our own contributed content.
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Re: WARNING: To buyers of young looking dolls

Post by ACLU1st »

Now here's a Novel Idea...
Just judge a naked doll sculpture on what naked female and male age 18 to 24 as in pornstars actually look like. Half of the vast in the thousands of USA Adult actresses and half of the tens of thousands Japanese Adult actresses are the age 18 to 24 Barely Legal and Gonzo (College Age) porn class. Just go to the Amazon.coms of porn: Adultdvdempire, R18 (DMM), Xcity, Adultcduniverse etc. And type in Barely Legal, School, Youthful, Small Tits, Petite, Daddy etc. on their site searches and see thousands of DVD covers and commercial trailers of what Japanese and American 18+ naked woman look like. Or look at past issues of Hustler Barely Legal magazine, Tight magazine, Eighteen Magazine, Cream magazine, Beppin magazine etc.

Racism, Discrimination, Bigotry, Hatecrime Free.

So if a doll doesn't resemble them..
well...

There's always the possibility of a dishonest corrupt employee of the law enforcement profession trying to frame someone on a bogus charge as in the case of the Wicked Realdoll model Little Lupe Fuentes were South American national was framed by a feminist Prosecutor with perjured testimony from someone in a medical career claiming she was under 18 when a 30 second Google search would have showed to any imbecile that she was an internationally famous and popular 18 and 19 year old pornstar.

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Re: WARNING: To buyers of young looking dolls

Post by LikeEmThicc »

if she's too short just say shes a dwarf! XD


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Re: WARNING: To buyers of young looking dolls

Post by midiman »

Mr Franz wrote:Bottom line. Age, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. No amount of preset rules and guidelines for what images can and cannot be posted is going to change that. Someone, somewhere is still going to perceive even compliant images as underage and complain. Then what? Tighter rules? More stringent regulations?

I can respect TDF for trying to remain aboveboard and to protect it's revenue, but I fear this will ultimately have the opposite effect by alienating more and more members. Perhaps something to think about.
Well 'young' age is certainly in the eye of the pedophile ;)

Your statement about protecting revenue is ill informed. Had protecting revenues been the motivating factor, the last thing TDF owners would be doing is limiting the advertisers on what they can advertise or display as it decreases their advertising value.

TDF's motivating factor is to insure that the image of our love doll community as a whole is not soiled by men who insist on owning and posting about child-like dolls that the general public will perceive as pedophilia. The owners and most buyers at TDF do not want to be associated with doll purchasers who have the need to own anatomically correct replica children and publicly post how cute they are.

If as you say that restricting dolls with childlike features will alienate more and more members then that is disturbing as it shows a tendency that availability is increasing the number of purchasers who fantasize having sex with children. And even if you want to twist an old saying to "Age is in the eye of the beholder." It boils down to this. It is not about what someone somewhere perceives. It is about what the majority of society perceives.
It may be difficult to guess exact age within a year or two, but the vast majority of people have no difficulty identifying children as what they are. So if your doll is close to the line you would be well advised not to show it publicly and thus make yourself a target as a possible sexual offender candidate.

If you feel your doll looks over 18 but 20 of the TDF volunteer staff (your peers) do not, then it is highly likley that the majority of society would see you as a possible pedophile. No amount of argument you could provide would change their minds and unfortunately they would also try to lump you in with all love doll owners.
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Re: WARNING: To buyers of young looking dolls

Post by Anung Un Rama »

Absolutely agree Midiman. :thumbs_up:

Here is the thing TDF community and peers, if you CAN NOT convince 20 or so dedicated and doll savy experts that are on staff here that your image represention of the dolly is Adult, then how do you reckon you would fare in a biased court where the jury is NOT doll savy, and does not consider the elements we have continually discussed.

It is no more complicated than that. Really, it is that simple.

Do not mistake me here, I have been a massive supporter and advocate for not blanket banning dolls based purely on make and models, and Management and Site Owners have generously but cautiously agreed (as seen in the intial announcement) with the image representation of the dolly based on Doll expert opinion as the moderator and regulator for a compliant doll images, Do we as a community wish to simply just ban a model based on its potential for misrepresentation?

Think about it.

Anung
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THE UN RAMA'S

Lilith Un Rama - RD She Devil Custom Bod 10 (DOLLMILF and TDF Doll Queen)
Natasha-RD Classic - Bod 6
Lexi-BT 3 (C) Star Bod 3 Gel butt & boob implants
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Emerald-R13 custom
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Jessica Jade-PD - 163cm, Penelope fitness version .
Mazzy M-JY/AS Doll 166cm fitness model
Pearl-JY150cm Fantasy Fitness my design
BaBs-PD 158cm Mega Boobs doll
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Gypsy Kate-WM 140cm D cup head #36
Dommy-SANHUI 65cm Mini silicone doll
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Re: WARNING: To buyers of young looking dolls

Post by ax4tl »

what is young? height? face? proportions?

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Re: WARNING: To buyers of young looking dolls

Post by midiman »

ax4tl wrote:what is young? height? face? proportions?
Size in itself is not an issue, but proportions are important, especially with the faces. The science is explained above in the first post. When it comes to subjective input, people who constantly work around dolls tend to get desensitized. One member commented that that dolls look younger than their real age however, in the case or replicas, whatever age a doll looks WILL be the age it is considered to represent. IN the love doll world there is no such thing as an 18 year old doll that looks 15. It is what it is. So don't try to fool yourselves or those around you. If it is borderline you are already treading on thin ice because it means there is already a good portion of the population that considers the doll to be child-like. There are the facial development features that can also be used to reinforce opinions. Keep in mind as stated earlier by another member, that dolls usually do not show aging features such as wrinkles, lines, etc. the absence of which is usually found on younger women and children. Therefore it is especially important that facial proportions for majority of adults are followed. Sure you can find 18 year olds with baby faces, but these are the exceptions to the rule. Exceptions may be acceptable in the human world because one has no biological control over looks, but in the doll world, manufacturers do have control. Therefore making dolls they claim to be 18 when they in fact look 15 will not help the buyer argue his case to those who do not agree. If it looks 15 it IS 15. That's how it all works. You have seen how people react to a man dating a woman half his age. Take that to the next level that a man is having sex with someone that could be his daughter...

Quite frankly if I see a member with a doll that looks 15 (or younger) I don't hold the member in high regard and would lose no sleep if they wanted to leave and post about their doll elsewhere. I raised two daughters. I dealt with perverts and for every pedophile there are probably many others on the fringe. Once they get a taste of a synthetic pedophilia, and the thrill of the synthetic child begins to wane, they may take the next step into the real world.

In general, people outside the doll world, tend to feel dolls look younger than most of the TDF staff and members see them. So please understand that if the volunteer TDF staff (your peers) rules your doll or some photos of your doll look too young to display at TDF you should take their ruling as good advice. Posting dolls with childlike features WILL make you stand out in the TDF crowd. Sites like TDF are constantly visited by law enforcement looking for any evidence that may lead them to a potential pedophile. We would just as soon not have the news reporting they were a member of the Doll Forum if they get charged ;) And don't think this is all new. The dolls are considered illegal in Canada and the St. Johns arrest shown in the image below, was in 2013. Australia, UK, Canada and USA are all seizing dolls and in cases where the law is not covering them they are proposing changes. People who insist in pushing the 'young' limits can cause an equal response from the law and that can make it bad for all of the responsible buyers as people lobby to ban scaled down adult love dolls or sex dolls altogether.
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Re: WARNING: To buyers of young looking dolls

Post by Mr Franz »

midiman wrote:
Mr Franz wrote:Bottom line. Age, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. No amount of preset rules and guidelines for what images can and cannot be posted is going to change that. Someone, somewhere is still going to perceive even compliant images as underage and complain. Then what? Tighter rules? More stringent regulations?

I can respect TDF for trying to remain aboveboard and to protect it's revenue, but I fear this will ultimately have the opposite effect by alienating more and more members. Perhaps something to think about.
Your statement about protecting revenue is ill informed. Had protecting revenues been the motivating factor, the last thing TDF owners would be doing is limiting the advertisers on what they can advertise or display as it decreases their advertising value.
Protecting revenue as in trying to avert possible shut down by restricting certain images. As for the rest, we'll just have to agree to disagree on most of it. For the record though, I have no real problem with TDF's stance here. Just musing over where it ends and pointing out a possible negative consequence. Loss of membership for "Approved Vendors" to market to. Voicing my opinion like everyone else. Not trying to start a war one way or the other.
Cheers. :glou:

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Re: WARNING: To buyers of young looking dolls

Post by Nescio50 »

This is not about protecting any commercial interest of TDF. This is to protect the members and the forum. As said, TDF is an adult forum on love dolls. We have to comply with legislation in countries that have jurisdiction that applies to this forum. But also we want to protect our members, so please be aware of all regulations in your country when buying, owning, publicly showing your love doll.

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