Plastic / Waxy Look of DS Dolls

[haremlover]

Orient: please make less expensive and softer dolls
4woods: please release new products more frequently and work to improve marketing
DS: please work to improve the visual realism of skin

Why should such things be a problem?

Um. Orient


This photo is from the DS Chinese forum. I'm sure we would love Orient to be less expensive. Some people will buy them because they are. If that is their market, then good for them.

It's also important to consider that the photo above is very carefully posed, dressed and lit, and is clearly the work of a top rate photographer.

The delight of DS dolls is that the reality tends to be far and away better than anything that can be expressed by a photograph.

4woods: please release new products more frequently and work to improve marketing

I hope that you'll be helping them to make it worthwhile to do so.

As for DS Aira asks you if her skin isn't adequately realistic:


I photograph my dolls warts and all in available light with no professional lighting, and have never ever won a photo competition. Sorry that my photos aren't good enough: but it means that anyone can rely on the reality of any doll I photograph being better than they see on the screen.

Best wishes

Harem

[campion]

I hope I don't sound too blunt here, but it sounds like you've already convinced yourself that you don't want a DS doll, so I'm curious about your continued inquiry. What is the purpose of this discussion if you have already decided you do not care for DS' work?

If a doll does not strike your fancy, you shouldn't invest in it. After all, these ladies are supposed to fulfil all of our desires and fantasies, right? It's quite possible that DS dolls just aren't your thing, and that's okay.

For myself, what I particularly love about the DS dolls is the fact that they are remarkably Asian in appearance, and I have yet to find any other doll manufacturer (besides 4Woods) who has done this to the same effect as DS. I don't care for larger Western-looking women, so DS fits the bill perfectly for me, because I am absolutely ga-ga over Asian ladies.

From what I have read from you before, you sound like you are awfully entranced and enchanted with the RealDoll2 series. I apologize if I sound presumptuous, but I seems to me that you would be happiest with an RD2. Perhaps that should be the object of your pursuit.

In any case, best of luck finding what you're looking for. I'm sure she's out there somewhere.

What's the line about assumptions making an ass of you and me? A DS Doll is highly likely to be my next doll purchase. Unlike some others, I don't view criticism of these products as an attack on them. I love these dolls. I even love the wacky $10,000 dolls that I'd never buy because they're both too expensive and kinda unfit for love doll purpose. If anything, I've been milder in my criticism of DS Doll than just about any other manufacturer. I am thrilled to see the emergence of a company that appears to have the ambition and capability to turn ownership of love dolls into a mainstream phenomenon.

It helps no one, however, -not you , not me, not DS Doll- for us all to pretend they make perfect products. Would I like them to? Sure! I didn't start a thread complaining that DS Doll doesn't make walking, talking androids though. I thought, based on photographic evidence I'd seen, that the skin could use some improvements to realism.

Speaking of skin, Stacy Leigh recently commented on how very thin the skin was of a lot of people here at TDF. There is certainly a tension around here because this forum is used by both fanatics that just want to celebrate these dolls and their wonderful aspects, and consumers of expensive products who want to see them improved/fixed/enhanced.

So let me say this: I believe DS Dolls are gorgeous and charming and of superior quality. I would not be prepared to drop $4k+ on anything less. As with any other product, however, they can of course be improved. Speaking for myself, I can hold these two ideas in my head at the same time and not be overly distressed. "I like this doll. It could be even better."

So say it to yourself. Go ahead, give it a try: "I like this doll. It could be even better."

[Rick_Deckard]

...I even love the wacky $10,000 dolls that I'd never buy because they're both too expensive and kinda unfit for love doll purpose.

Man, you are not alone in this.
If I were filthy rich, i'd have already bought one...

[campion]

...I even love the wacky $10,000 dolls that I'd never buy because they're both too expensive and kinda unfit for love doll purpose.

Man, you are not alone in this.
If I were filthy rich, i'd have already bought one...

Oh yes. We've all seen these pics before, like the one haremlover posted above, of these insanely gorgeous Orient Dolls. I mean, it's jaw-dropping isn't it?

Personally, my inclination is to gripe to Orient, "why can't you make this thing soft and affordable?" Others would chime in, "and give her an asshole too!"

I guess most people just silently walk away and Orient never has any idea what the problem was. Then again, maybe Orient are just happy to have cornered the filthy rich market.

[rubherkitty]

The squeaky wheel gets the grease and if I was making dolls I would certainly like feedback on the +/-'s.

There was some chat about another makers doll having skin w/a orange peel texture and some debate about how this was done. Now this subject came up and I was thinking one reason for shiny skin is not only the silicone blend, but maybe the use of mold release when the doll is cast leads to a very smooth surface. But all makers will use mold release. Maybe the release film is so thin the orange peel skin doll will still have that texture through the film? I do not like shiny skin myself. Does not do well for photography either. As others have mentioned shiny skin can be reduced with powder. I have a silicone insert that I made and through a couple of powderings and lots of handling I have found the shine has gone away. Of course this is just the face of a fleshlight style insert and not a complete doll. I don't know if you did a lot of rub down on a doll how much the shine will be reduced?

I wonder if any type of powder could be dusted onto the mold release before the doll is cast to give it some surface texture? This shiny doll factor is something that I will have to resolve come the day I make dolls so I appreciate the discussion.

[campion]

The squeaky wheel gets the grease and if I was making dolls I would certainly like feedback on the +/-'s.

There was some chat about another makers doll having skin w/a orange peel texture and some debate about how this was done. Now this subject came up and I was thinking one reason for shiny skin is not only the silicone blend, but maybe the use of mold release when the doll is cast leads to a very smooth surface. But all makers will use mold release. Maybe the release film is so thin the orange peel skin doll will still have that texture through the film? I do not like shiny skin myself. Does not do well for photography either. As others have mentioned shiny skin can be reduced with powder. I have a silicone insert that I made and through a couple of powderings and lots of handling I have found the shine has gone away. Of course this is just the face of a fleshlight style insert and not a complete doll. I don't know if you did a lot of rub down on a doll how much the shine will be reduced?

I wonder if any type of powder could be dusted onto the mold release before the doll is cast to give it some surface texture? This shiny doll factor is something that I will have to resolve come the day I make dolls so I appreciate the discussion.

For the record, I have contacted DS Doll previously about this and suggested they do something to artificially "rough" their skin ala the "orange peel" texture you mention. I won't quote their response but DS Doll know about this. Some people on this board clearly do not consider it to be an issue. DS Doll may or may not consider it an issue, may or may not do anything about it, or may even consider it a feature of the dolls for all I know.

Again, we keep cycling back to a question of the degree of realism that DS Dolls are supposed to have. There is something to be said for the contention that the charm of DS Dolls is not based upon absolute realism. Perhaps a more realistic/detailed skin would actually detract from that charm. I'm not a doll artist myself, so I'm not sure. DS Doll clearly has a few on staff.

Bottom line: DS Doll is aware of this. If it makes sense to change it, I expect they will at some point in the future.

[Rick_Deckard]

Bottom line: DS Doll is aware of this. If it makes sense to change it, I expect they will at some point in the future.

For sure it would make sense to offer it as an available option for a reasonable fee.
More realism is always interesting...

[karpos]

I have offered constructive criticism to various manufacturers including Abyss, 4woods, DS and Orient and very much appreciate the work and different strengths of all of these companies. In my opinion they need to hear these things. This is why it is called "constructive criticism". The point is to encourage them to improve their products. What have I actually said?

Abyss: please work on lighter RD2s
Orient: please make less expensive and softer dolls
4woods: please release new products more frequently and work to improve marketing
DS: please work to improve the visual realism of skin

Why should such things be a problem?

Of course there is compromise in every product, but that has not stopped me from buying dolls and it will not stop me in the future. If all we can do at TDF, however, is to sycophantically and uncritically praise these products then it becomes a useless and unhelpful place. These products are quite expensive and customers have a right to offer suggestions and to point out issues they see that might hopefully and reasonably be corrected.

I agree with you on the above statement Campion. I believe it is important that we do offer constructive criticism to all doll makers. I haven't seen enough footage of the new DS skin design to make a proper critique of their current production models. I agree that in the past they have had a bit of a waxy sheen to them. That has supposedly been addressed already with the newer models as has been previously documented elsewhere. I have my own issues with DS dolls that will likely keep me from buying their product so this is not a fanboy defending a beloved product. Even with the product line that I favor. I have done my best to be as unbiased as possible and list what I personally see as the strengths and weaknesses of the line.

That is where my second issue comes in. There is an art to providing constructive criticism. The post could have been more diplomatically named, such as, "Suggestions for improvement in DS dolls appearance." The post starts out initially confrontational rather than as an open invitation to suggest what we as customers would like to see DS do. What we want is for DS to see our issues and respond to them. I know if I were them I would look less at posts with confrontational attitudes in favor of posts that are offering polite criticism. It is also good to tell them what you are looking for from them.

Like my issues with their appearance stem from the fact that I am not a fan of the smaller body size and more asian appearance of their dolls. I would love to see them create a body size with a + and - model that scales to more western sized women and additional western faces. Right now the only face that has a western look (to me) is the Miranda head. I realize that Asia is their target market so I can't blame them for focusing on it. But now that they have established themselves as a quality manufacturer they might want to look to other markets as well.

[campion]

It's also important to consider that the photo above is very carefully posed, dressed and lit, and is clearly the work of a top rate photographer.

The delight of DS dolls is that the reality tends to be far and away better than anything that can be expressed by a photograph.

This claim has been made a couple of times. It may be true. It's not easy to experience a DS Doll for most people, however, outside of photographs before purchasing one. So you'll have to be patient with those of us who must rely upon photos to help guide purchasing decisions.

Now, if all we had were photographs then a company like Orient would own this market (at least until a photo leaked of the genitalia, I guess ), but people also discuss the strengths and weaknesses of various dolls, all dolls have limitations, and people make purchasing decisions based upon available information.

DS Doll owners come across as fairly fanatical about their choice. And I don't think that's a bad thing. DS is creating some happy and satisfied (baddap pssh) customers. If I buy a DS Doll, however, that means I'm forgoing or delaying getting a 4woods or Abyss product, both of which I've owned in the past and know very well what I'm getting. A claim of, "trust me, it's better than it looks" is not very compelling. If the photographs of DS Doll's products are not reflective of the quality of the product, then it seems DS Doll should consider hiring better photographers. That said, I actually like the photos on the DS site for the most part. I like that they take many outdoors, in natural environments.

I dunno, tempest in a teacup. I'd like more skin detail on DS Dolls, YMMV. What else is there to say?

[deadpringle]

Why should such things be a problem?

Hi Campion,

I hope it doesn't seem like siliconefun, harem, and I are ganging up on you here. That genuinely is not the intention. Perhaps I can explain a bit more to make things a little more clear regarding our responses.

The main problem is that you posted in the DS Doll forum section, and began to criticize DollSweet's work. The main point of these subforums is to give people a place to ask manufacturer-specific questions, questions about repair, and to share stories, photos, etc. If you wish to express a proper criticism of a doll manufacturer, or their products, this is usually best done under the "Dolls In General" subforum." Take Harem's recent topic of "What Chinese TPE makers need to do to fix their dolls" as a proper example of where and how to post such topics. Plus, you do want to be sure to leverage tact when posting criticisms about a doll manufacturer's work. Because of the nature of dolls, and how many here feel about their synthetic mates, there are a lot of feelings that can get stepped on as a result if one is not careful.

There is a bit of an aire of "RealDoll is the king of all dolls" attitude that some convey here on this forum, and that same attitude tends to convey that work by any other manufacturer cannot come anywhere near Abyss' or BT's quality. This attitude is unfounded, and "straw man" attitudes like this can ruin a forum.

For a different perspective, consider that I'm a hardcore GNU/Linux and BSD user. If I locate a Windows forum, and point out all of the flaws in Windows, and also point out that no such Windows-based flaws exist in Linux or BSD, this would be considered a troll. I'm not accusing you of trolling, mind you, and I do not believe this was your intent. I'm just saying that the wording and placement of your post might look this way to some.

The point is, many people here have a very strong emotional attachment to their dolls, and if you criticize without using a sufficient level of tact, it's possible that many might have an adverse reaction. I learned this myself when I was attempting to have a discussion about TPE, and the concerns which I had about it (deformation, lifetime, ruggedness, etc.). Unfortunately, at the time, I had used little tact in my criticisms, and as a result, I bruised a few people's emotions in the process. Plus, most importantly, I did not, and still do not own a TPE doll, so while I had a lot of academic research on the material under my belt, I had/have no real experience with TPE dolls.

It might be difficult for some to realize just how wonderful DollSweet's work is until they actually have one in their possession, and unfortunately, while there are many beautiful photographs of DollSweet's work out there, none of them can really convey just how beautiful and wonderful their dolls are. You just have to see one in person.

Of course there is compromise in every product, but that has not stopped me from buying dolls and it will not stop me in the future. If all we can do at TDF, however, is to sycophantically and uncritically praise these products then it becomes a useless and unhelpful place. These products are quite expensive and customers have a right to offer suggestions and to point out issues they see that might hopefully and reasonably be corrected.

It's fine to offer suggestions. However, your post seems more like you are levying a complaint about DS dolls, and, I ask you to pardon me for sounding a little abrasive here, but your criticisms about DS dolls are a bit pedantic in nature. Your post, perhaps unwittingly, seems to characterize DollSweet as just another two-bit Chinese doll cloning outfit (at least that's how I interpreted it). The very title in your post, "Plastic/Waxy", can easily be translated to "cheap junk" in the minds of others. It's important to bear in mind that DollSweet is a *Japanese* company, not a Chinese company. The Japanese are very serious about quality in their products. It's why they've been kicking the collective asses of American car manufacturers for decades, and continue to do so. For the Japanese, TQM is in their blood. If you don't believe me, drive a GM, or Ford truck. Then drive a Toyota or Nissan.

DollSweet *is* a high-end manufacturer, just as much as Abyss is a high-end manufacturer. Cheaper dolls does not mean less quality. It means smarter manufacturing. Their dolls are cheaper, because they have a streamlined the manufacturing process. One of their dolls takes about a month to complete, whereas, if I recall correctly, a RealDoll takes nearly three months. Plus, DollSweet's quality and ruggedness is second to none.

Comparing them to RealDoll isn't really fair or appropriate, since their approach is *very* different from RealDoll, and they are targeting a completely different market with a completely different set of tastes. A good example is this: compare a typical Japanese PlayStation game to a typical U.S. Playstation game. Look at Dead Or Alive vs. Mortal Kombat, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

In closing, I want to offer you this as a suggestion: if you've looked over all that DollSweet has to offer, and none of their offerings strikes you, or appeals to, you should consider going with a different manufacturer. More important than anything, a doll should speak to our desires. Frankly, it doesn't sound like DS dolls are "doing it" for you.

Anyway, I hope I don't sound too accusatory or abrasive in this post. I just wanted to help you understand where many (perhaps most) of us are coming from.

[deadpringle]

Bottom line: DS Doll is aware of this. If it makes sense to change it, I expect they will at some point in the future.

If it's something that does not interfere with their pipeline, they may very well do something like this. However, if it means a doll will take two to three months to complete, my guess is that they may not bother with something like this, unless they can offer it as a custom option, on the condition that a doll will take much longer to complete and ship.

[campion]

That is where my second issue comes in. There is an art to providing constructive criticism. The post could have been more diplomatically named, such as, "Suggestions for improvement in DS dolls appearance." The post starts out initially confrontational rather than as an open invitation to suggest what we as customers would like to see DS do. What we want is for DS to see our issues and respond to them. I know if I were them I would look less at posts with confrontational attitudes in favor of posts that are offering polite criticism. It is also good to tell them what you are looking for from them.

A couple of things. First, I wrote directly to DS about this before posting the poll. I assume manufacturers keep an eye on these boards, to keep a finger on the pulse of what their customers like and dislike about their current products and might like to see in future products. I don't count on that, though, so I do write companies directly as well. My letters are polite and to the point.

Second, TDF is a sort of hangout, and people here tend to speak their minds more informally. I stand by the poll (though concede it requires a familiarity with 'Young Frankenstein' to understand the last option). It was in a sense a kind of sanity check to see if anyone else was noticing what I was. According to poll results, other people have in fact noticed this as well, though in numerous cases don't view it as greatly problematic. Is it enough of a problem to stop me from purchasing a DS Doll at this time? In itself it's not a showstopper, but it does make me consider stretching for a 4woods instead, which I know from first-hand experience doesn't have an issue with this. Honestly, it also seems like an easy fix for DS. I'm not asking for artificial intelligence. Other manufacturers found ways to address this and moved on.

I do try to use tact and keep language as dispassionate as possible when making criticisms. In a lot of cases no level of criticism is acceptable, as some people read criticism as simply an attack on their choice of doll or favorite manufacturer. Again, I think Stacy Leigh ran into this as well. There are a lot of sensitive people at TDF. That's what makes it an unusually nice place in many ways, but can be problematic when one wants to talk about perceived product flaws.

[deadpringle]

It's also important to consider that the photo above is very carefully posed, dressed and lit, and is clearly the work of a top rate photographer.

The delight of DS dolls is that the reality tends to be far and away better than anything that can be expressed by a photograph.

This claim has been made a couple of times. It may be true. It's not easy to experience a DS Doll for most people, however, outside of photographs before purchasing one. So you'll have to be patient with those of us who must rely upon photos to help guide purchasing decisions.

This is the problem. Your post does not come across as an inquiry. It comes across as a petty criticism. And again, I reiterate, you targeted the wrong forum section for such a post.

Here's the main problem I have with this post Campion. It sounds like you've already talked yourself out of making a purchase with DollSweet. So I don't understand the point of the discussion here.

Now, if all we had were photographs then a company like Orient would own this market (at least until a photo leaked of the genitalia, I guess ), but people also discuss the strengths and weaknesses of various dolls, all dolls have limitations, and people make purchasing decisions based upon available information.

How else can I put this?...

"Hi everyone! I wanted to know what you all thought about the QuasiPseudo 9000. It seems less detailed than the HalfwayFake T6500, and when I look at pictures, it just looks cheap, flat, and uninspiring."

Honestly, does this sound like I'm interested in purchasing a QuasiPseudo 9000 to begin with? This is why I don't understand the overall point of your post.

DS Doll owners come across as fairly fanatical about their choice.

I wouldn't say "fanatical", but I am a bit evangelical. However, I recognize that DollSweet's work won't appeal to everyone, and that's okay. Everyone needs to go with what makes them happy. For people like Harem, Mex, and I, it's DollSweet dolls.

P.S.: Okay, I am a DollSweet fanboy *grin*, but I won't say anything critical about another product until I have actually tried it myself.

A claim of, "trust me, it's better than it looks" is not very compelling.

Especially if you seem like you're already uninterested in the product. If you don't see something on the DollSweet site in the photos that instantly makes you say "OMG, I'm in love!" then certainly such a doll in person likely won't do anything at all for you.

Me on the other hand, *everything* I see on DollSweet's site - I WANT!@#

I dunno, tempest in a teacup. I'd like more skin detail on DS Dolls, YMMV. What else is there to say?

Considering that DollSweet is a Japanese company. I'd be very surprised if they have not already considered this. Perhaps this is in the works. Perhaps they have determined that it's too costly of a process, and that it will interefere with their manufacturing pipeline. If detailed skin is what you need to be satisfied, then you should target that as a requirement. But I wouldn't necessarily expect DS to change their process overnight for something like this, because I don't think this is a problem for the vast majority of their customers. Remember my previous DOA vs. MK comparison? Asian markets tend to like things which are smooth and shiny. This is apparent in their Anime and Manga media.

You're a good chap Campion, and myself and the others know you mean well. Just as I would with everyone else here, I would very much like to see you find the doll of your dreams. If DS can't give you that, then that's okay, not everyone is ga-ga over DS dolls, just like not everyone is ga-ga over WM Dolls. Myself, I look at RealDolls, and I think to myself, "they're pretty, but I just picture them asking me to take out the trash while having sex." Western ladies just don't appeal to me. Like I said earlier, DS primarily targets the Asian market. This means Asian-looking dolls. This means that with DS, for me personally, I'm in hog heaven. See that picture in my avatar? I'm hittin' that every night. The sheen on her body is not normal... this is an *ahem* "aftermath" picture. There's no better workout than a doll that you're crazy about, IMHO.

I hope you find what you're looking for. Best of luck to you!

[campion]

In closing, I want to offer you this as a suggestion: if you've looked over all that DollSweet has to offer, and none of their offerings strikes you, or appeals to, you should consider going with a different manufacturer. More important than anything, a doll should speak to our desires. Frankly, it doesn't sound like DS dolls are "doing it" for you.

Anyway, I hope I don't sound too accusatory or abrasive in this post. I just wanted to help you understand where many (perhaps most) of us are coming from.

No, I get it, and in fact it was the purported connection to 4woods that DS Doll has that made me first look into them and to take them as seriously as I do.

You keep trying to sort of run me off with this, "if you don't like these dolls don't buy one" stuff. In fact, the hectoring tone of this post puts me off DS Dolls way more than any skin texture or lack thereof ever have. I guess i need to repeat myself and say that I really like these dolls and am highly likely to buy one (or more). I also think it'd be cool if they had a more realistic skin texture. Seems like an easy fix, but maybe it's rocket science. If no other doll manufacturer featured this, it might not even occur to me to request it. I've owned dolls that had this, though. It was nice. DS should consider it.

I'm kinda out of things to say about all this.

[haremlover]

No, I get it, and in fact it was the purported connection to 4woods that DS Doll has

I'm not aware of any connexion whatever, other than they are Japanese and that 4Woods sets a benchmark of quality - which DS is proud to attempt to exceed.

Those of us who might be viewed as fanatic about DS do so having experienced them but I for one am no exclusive bigot as far as dolls are concerned, having tried and enjoyed and recommended the very cheapest TPE doll and expressed admiration for 4Woods ladies, RealDoll ladies who take my eye occasionally, Ruby 13 and PIB - and if I express a dislike about anything it's because I have personal experience and good reason to form and express an opinion.

This thread has extended itself and I wonder if there is much usefully more that can be said.

Best wishes

Harem