The Doll Forum

Xanadu wrote:..., but to ban on a brand just because of the size is a little presumptuous.

We never ban a doll for its size. This doll was banned because it has a sexual function and it is representing an under-age girl.

bjdlover wrote:So, any lawyers out there want to weigh in on this? If not maybe someone will have the nerve to ask one to look into this.

http://www.justanswer.com/law/

Give it a try and see what they say. It's only a few bucks. Let us know what you find out.

It is my opinion that people with agalmatophilia tend to overrate the emotional effect and importance of dolls, and project that emotion on others. Most people don't give a hoot. Just being honest here. So the answer you may get is something like, if they have lead in them, they're not allowed. Otherwise, I don't think anyone cares about the shape of a hunk of silicone, or whether or not the person who molded it put a tin can inside the mold between the legs to create a hole in the product.

As for these dolls indicating pedophilia, I am surprised that this group cannot seem to distinguish between pedophilia and agalmatophilia. Again, just being honest.

eenie

Let me help you a little. Here in The Netherlands possession of child porn is strictly forbidden. Also animated child porn is forbidden, so it is not necessary for a judge to proof that there was a real child involved or that the child was actually sexual abused. Also, nude pictures of minors, presented for erotic pleasure, may be regarded as child porn. Nude art is no problem. Pictures of your own children at the beach are no problem. But nude pictures of a minor on a web site for erotic stuff ....

Even here I don't think you will get sentenced for pictures of a nude, under-age looking doll (as long as it's obviously a doll and it's no hard core). But as soon as there are serious accusations you are already condemned by the general public. Personally, I don't want to be part of a community that risks that kind of accusations.

Edit: this is about posting pictures on an international forum.
Disclaimer: I'm no legal expert, the first paragraph is based on publicity in several child porn cases over here, the second paragraph is my personal opinion.

I'm referring to import into, and ownership within, the US. I'm not a lawyer or a psychologist. Just my personal opinion.

Yes, I was speaking more specifically about sale and ownership in the US. I'd love to own one of these for photography and would jump at a used one but I'd be terrified to purchase it if it were one that was sexually capable. Same goes for Level D and several others.

PS. I'm still getting used to dolls and don't have the nerve yet to make legal inquiries. I'd grab the next used one if I could be sure that buying it wouldn't be illegal.

The thing is things get mixed up here because of the nature of this forum. The title of this thread is in my eyes not good (misleading) but so be it (It should have been: please read before posting pictures that probably will be deleted, or something like that). This topic goes about what you can post or not, not what you can own or not.

Yes it's true that the topic has strayed a bit, but I think where it has strayed is important as well. These are concerns for the entire doll community. So even though we are no longer completely on the original topic, I think we have launched an important discussion. Hopefully one that someone can provide good legal answers for.

Filch wrote:I saw this coming a mile away,

Also, I think that it is often difficult for most men to distinguish between a girl and a lady. That song, "I am not a girl, but I am not yet a women," by Britney Spears, points to that age transition confusion.

Britney Spears was Way HOT!

I think half the people on this thread are delusional.

* The dolls that take up 90%+ of TDF are sold and used 90%+ for sex.
* The membership and posts may not reflect that because obviously the photographers contribute more content than the, uh, sexually active membership.
* A sizeable number of dolls on the market (definitely >>10%) picture underage girls through a combination of size, proportions, and face.

(I personally wish all of those underage-like dolls would go away or given an aging treatment.)

And:
* All this "they can't prove that I ..." - you may never get the benefit of the doubt. Welcome to the world. A fair number of people think you're a creep. In fact, if you're 40+ and express attraction to girls ~20 (real or doll), many people already consider you a creep, legal or not. If you really believe that being discovered to own an underage sex doll (maybe *especially* if you're posting "artistic" photos of her online) can't cost you your job or affect your divorce because of some abstract principle of law, go ask a buddy to knock some sense into you.

And:
* Given the size of the membership here, you can be sure that TDF has a fair number of members with "mild paedophilia" (people who don't think of themselves as such and who'd never approach real children but whose fantasies or artistic inspirations go well into the gray zone).
* Given the size of the membership here, you can be sure that there are real paedophiles and sex offenders among TDF members.

You can decide for yourself how you'd classify someone fucking a replica of a 15 year old girl.

Anyway : TDF management, please protect yourselves and the community. I don't see how anyone could accuse you of overreacting (perhaps the opposite).

Oh yes, and Britney was definitely hot .

Papa Bear wrote:

Axion wrote:I hate censorship because it always ends up spiraling out of control but understand the decision given how judgmental people are to this hobby.

Please see my message on this subject here: http://dollforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=143&t=44082 I hate censorship too, and as a practicing artist have spoken out against it my entire adult life. I am also a realist and anything depicting abuse of children will and should be deplored by civilized societies. Axion makes a good point to "stop putting child faces on them! ". I am a current owner of a Miniature Love Doll and understand the need for a smaller, lighter doll. I see the MLD face as a 20-30 year old adult woman and encourage other small doll makers to make their dolls unmistakably adult appearing.

Hear, hear. Well said, Papa!

DS are still selling both bodies in its original form in China - Only exports are problematic, usually because of local law's and moral differences. This actually just shows how lawmakers in Europe actually have no clue about Asia and the life here. It is very usual to walk on the street and see "underage girls" who later turn out to be 25 or even older. Almost every Asian woman, especially in China and Japan tries to convey that by makeup, clothes etc - because it's considered beautiful here.

I am not Asian, but I do my business in China. I got used to it, especially to the body size here which is on average 150cm and about 40kg. Dollmakers make a lot of money in China, and there are factories and companies you guys never heard of, mostly because an export to the US or Europe would be too problematic. But at the same time, I cannot imagine a Chinese guy (which is on average not more than 60kg) handling a doll which is 35kg.

The majority of dolls here are between 120cm and 140cm. The price plays also a major role. A 120cm doll is 50% cheaper than a doll which is 165cm.

That leaves only the question why they put "child-like faces" on those dolls - It's the culture and the local law. I don't want to get into details, but you see things in Asia which can be shocking for someone, with a Western "moral background". Yet at the end, "pureness" and "youth" plays always a major role, not only in Asia. That explains why all that "18-year-old" porn is so famous and there is demand.

And at the end, its a big hypocrisy: You can find porn of 18 year old girls who look like 12, and the law is totally fine with that, yet when it comes to dolls it's getting into a problem. If they ban all the porn with girls under 150cm and small breast and the dolls - okay, I would understand, even support.

Yet I am almost sure that at lest 30% of the people buying those "small dolls" are pedophiles, who want to take their fantasies further. Some say its better, because at least they're not hurting a real child, but on the other hand, after having the doll, maybe that would thrive them to abuse a child. It's a dangerous situation, and that's why doll-makers react, when it comes to exports. Nobody wants to be responsible for any incident. But that doesn't mean they stop selling other lines on the domestic market.

And after the example with DS dolls (by the way, I doubt anyone of you actually knows the real story why they "stopped" selling those dolls internationally) other factories are changing their models too.

At the end, I support the decision of this forum, yet the problem is far bigger.

George
Edited by NetWit; 2013-11-04 17:30:00 EST; Edited one time; Reason: removed statements in reference to information that is pending verification.

I dont actually know of any changes the doll makers have made. All the majors are still selling small dolls with features that some consider "not adult".
I noticed that DS Doll has a US web page which does not sell "functional" 132 and 138 dolls although their Chinese language site still sells them as before as
does the parent company, Artie Tokyo in Japan.

Although there are issues related to importing these dolls to Canada due to a mis-understanding of the law, I know of absolutely no prohibition
of importing these dolls, Trottla, Make pure or Apricot dolls into the US. I import 20k of products into the US every week and own a Make Pure Tomomi and Arti Tokyo Min 132
I bought on secondary markets with no customs issues.
Its a hunk of silicone (oh, the blasphemy to say such a thing!).

I have to wonder why the "young" dolls have such a hot resale market in the US while the "older" dolls seem to be rather flat right now.

I think the size of the doll is irrelevant. My 12 year old is already the same exact size as a 168cm doll. Does that mean 168com dolls should also be banned because they accurately depict American
12-16 year old girl's bodies? I know a few 20+ Asian girls with less than 150cm bodies that could be well depicted by the DS138.

JiaYi or JiaXin's head on a 138 doll would be perfectly normal in the real world as would Tong's head on a 168 doll. The pedophilia argument is a straw argument by bigots who say all doll sex is wrong and sex in general should be regulated....well, unless your gay.

rick2604 wrote: I think the size of the doll is irrelevant. My 12 year old is already the same exact size as a 168cm doll. Does that mean 168com dolls should also be banned because they accurately depict American

By that logic you'd also have to ban all downsized dolls with very young looking faces, because I've seen girls as young as 12 with breasts like an adult woman. It's not as common, but it happens!
I would label dolls like that with ephebophilia(late teens) and the not so well developed ones with hebephilia(early teens). Both are not uncommon because it's in our genes to search for a young and healthy female. It's society that criminalizes it, but I'm getting off topic.

What I really wanted to say is, not everyone likes melonsized boobs. Not everyone can or(wants to) lift a big chunk of silicone. Both alone are considered okay, but don't you dare to combine those two things or you will be called "Pedo"! I mean, isn't that a kind of hypocrisy?

skyknight wrote:

rick2604 wrote: I think the size of the doll is irrelevant. My 12 year old is already the same exact size as a 168cm doll. Does that mean 168com dolls should also be banned because they accurately depict American

By that logic you'd also have to ban all downsized dolls with very young looking faces, because I've seen girls as young as 12 with breasts like an adult woman. It's not as common, but it happens!
I would label dolls like that with ephebophilia(late teens) and the not so well developed ones with hebephilia(early teens). Both are not uncommon because it's in our genes to search for a young and healthy female. It's society that criminalizes it, but I'm getting off topic.

What I really wanted to say is, not everyone likes melonsized boobs. Not everyone can or(wants to) lift a big chunk of silicone. Both alone are considered okay, but don't you dare to combine those two things or you will be called "Pedo"! I mean, isn't that a kind of hypocrisy?

It is hypocrisy, but what can you do? There is an witch hunt going on, and you have four options:

1: Join the angry mob
2: Be chased by the angry mob.
3: Fight the angry mob.
4: Stand at the sideline and watch the angry mob.

It is the dark ages all over again. Personally I understand where this is coming from. Some dolls really look like children and we are not doing the doll community an favor by fucking childlike sexdolls in every which way we please. The standard is adults do it with adults.
Just think of it: You can make a doll look like anybody you want, why not make it look like that 8 y.o. next door or maybe the doll accidentally looks like her? I do understand the angry mob. Children are the most precious they have. Sexdoll owners are not everyday people, and it's normal that everyday people don't trust them. Especially when they have children that look like their dolls.
Size restriction is kinda ridiculous but it's a start. In the nearby future these rules will be defined, but not yet. You have to live by the current rule whether you are number 1, 2, 3, or 4 on my list.

If size was an indication for adulthood, this girl will never reach that stage and the boy would be branded an pedofile:



But they are humans, and we know they are adult.Your doll has only looks. When it looks 11 y.o. the angry mob will brand it as 11 y.o. Just remember you can't fight the angry mob by breaking the rules.

Or this woman, who I had a serious (and unrequited) crush on until her Fanconi syndrome finally did her in at the ripe young age of 35. The same ailment that prevented her from growing to a height of more than 39 inches. Smaller than a Classic Teddy babe, or even a Mini Love Doll, Only 7 inches taller than my VRD! So I guess that makes me a pedophile...