WM- Full Skeletal Overhaul (Hopefully)

shigowa68 · Post by **shigowa68** » Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:51 pm

While we`re still waiting, I had a live chat with my vendor the other evening. Thought the community might be interested.
I was enquiring about the articulated hands as a `stand alone` purchase, and if so, how much.
Yes it is possible. WM cut them off defective dolls and re-sell them. They do it this way because `they don`t make them to order` and `they wont fit an older skeleton`.
V2 hands havn`t been released yet, were due out in October and have been delayed till December. Could be delayed again, but even then you would have to wait for a defective doll with the right skin colour to come in.
??????????.....This, plus the use of the words `cut` and `wont fit an older skeleton` led to a confused exchange on where the cut is made,.
In short, they `cut` the TPE and unscrew the hand/wrist assembly from the forearm tube. Presumably it is the same thread.
After having another look at pics of the articulated hand skeleton, It`s pretty clear the V2 hands will not be a comfortable fit inside a hand that was poured on a wire finger setup. V1 is debatable, but I don`t want to be replacing her TPE hands.
So, finger wires it is. May keep the MF hand plate, but at the moment I`m leaning towards her original hand plates.
Never did get an actual price, but `pretty pricey.`

Michaelangelo · Post by **Michaelangelo** » Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:46 am

This is good to know indeed Shigowa!

I've nearly completed Miranda's RH now with the MF hands, although I have modified the fingers by slimming them down and using worm screws instead of the self-tapping screws, since her fingers are so thin that the screws really didn't work well. But the stripped-down fingers slid inside neatly and have no risk of screws splitting her TPE. Pretty pleased with the result so far and I think I'll be happy enough with these for her sculpt. It's amazing how her hand now looks way more realistic, even though she has the basic sculpt poured over wire fingers.

And as you say, you'd need to wait for a doll of the right skin colour and maybe even the height? Mira's fingers are long and thin and I don't know whether that's related to her height of 163 or not.

Cheers,

Mike

MinniMagg · Post by **MinniMagg** » Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:37 pm

This story, especially this section
"After having another look at pics of the articulated hand skeleton, It`s pretty clear the V2 hands will not be a comfortable fit inside a hand that was poured on a wire finger setup. V1 is debatable, but I don`t want to be replacing her TPE hands.
So, finger wires it is. May keep the MF hand plate, but at the moment I`m leaning towards her original hand plates.
Never did get an actual price, but `pretty pricey.`"

Reminds me of working in the Autos industry in the mid-1980s. We kept producing the same old junk and American buyers bought it. And then the Japanese came along with better technology. Rather than play "catch up", my company decided to continue to build the same old cars designed in the late seventies. In one meeting the president said "our Pickup Truck design was so old it could vote".

Our sales dropped and suddenly there was an all-out effort to try to catch up to the foreign cars designs and features. It took us five years, but yet the foreign cars evolved during that 5 years and our "new cars" were simply 5 years behind. And we never caught up.

I've seen some other manufacturers come out with unique features that didn't cost a fortune. I think the problem is that us buyers simply aren't demanding a higher quality product with things like articulated hands rather than wires that poke through or break.

This is the same old story of old technology being produced in a more Modern Age. And before someone chimes in and says they would need to have a higher price point, that's what my automotive company did. An equivalent car to a luxury import car, with better features, we tried to charge $5,000 more. Suddenly we had huge parking lots full of new cars because people would not pay a premium for something that was old technology to them.

Consumers are not dumb. But if we don't push on the vendors to evolve, they won't because it cost them time and money.

Some of their casting molds are quite dated. Articulated hands should not be a big deal especially if they are produced in Mass quantity.

Maybe WM is on the right track on integrating articulating hands, but the comment of :pretty pricey" will reduce the take rate of buyers, and make each individual limited quantity model more expensive.

Integrate the articulated hands Across the entire product line, and the cost per unit will come down. We've known that since Henry Ford made the Model T. If you make just a few, you have a price point like a Maserati which few people can afford.

shigowa68 · Post by **shigowa68** » Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:13 pm

Right, lets remove some bones.

Session 1
Spent half the allotted 20 mins taking pictures. Swung the shrugging action forward again and protected the TPE with some micro fibre cloths.

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Need a `pry tool` to hold the TPE out of the way. I used a length of copper pipe, the same piece I used as the allen key extension.

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Kneeling down and wedging the other end of the pry bar under my arm left both hands free to hold a dremel with a cutting disk, made short work of the nut to bolt weld and loosened off the nut.

Times up. I do have another site to work in, but resisted the urge. She now has a floppy shoulder, adding a floppy waist to this would make her that little bit harder to manoeuvre.

Session 2
The bolt head weld is a little harder to get to with a cutting disk, a second pry tool is needed to hold the TPE clear. As her hairbrush was close to hand.....

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...again, the copper tube under one arm and using the hand of the same arm to hold the hairbrush in place. I had no issues grinding the weld away with one hand, made sure the bolt head was able to spin, then left the nut and bolt in place and attacked the nut to bolt weld on the other shoulder.

Session 3
Tackled the last shoulder weld, again leaving the nut and bolt in place, before moving onto the spine. Decided to break the bolt head weld first so I can then rotate the nut to bolt weld around for a better angle of attack.
Fitted the spreading tool, but due to the depth of the TPE and the lack of space decided against a cutting disk and went with the grinding/etching bit. Slow going with this but it will do the job. Thought about a needle diamond file, again slow going. Discovered by pulling the spreading tool out a little to create a space between the ring of the spreader and her back, I could then slip the dremel into this gap and get the perfect angle with a cutting disk while keeping it clear of the TPE (just).
The lack of space also makes it tricky to get a socket and ratchet handle into place with a firm seating over the bolt head, don`t want to round off the bolt head so used a spanner. Bending her forward at the waist creates enough space between all the other hardware in there for the jaws of the spanner to get a good grip of the bolt head. Once I was able to turn the bolt head, called it a day.

Session 4
One more weld to tackle. Apologies for no pics of the spinal area, I was so much `in the zone` that I completely forgot to take any.
Didn`t use the spreader here. After rotating the nut to bolt weld to `top dead centre`, used my pry bar to pull the TPE to the side and down to expose the weld. Once again a cutting disk made light work of this.
As we havn`t been in the shoulder area today, let`s try get get an arm out. Swinging the arm forward again, removed the nut and bolt, separated the joint and retrieved the 2 washers from the cavity. Grabbing hold of the shoulder and pushing up on the arm, guided the shoulder out through the hole.

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While pulling up on the shoulder I was able to separate the remaining bandage from the TPE easily, and with a gentle twist and a shuffle of the TPE arm along the bone, extracting the bone is nice and easy.

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Up until now she`s still being stored standing up, cant do that anymore, so left her on the operating table, rolled onto her back to support the now boneless shoulder.

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Session 5
Removed the other arm bone in the same way as the first.
Now for the spine. Using 2 spanners, removed the nut. Again need to bend her forward at the waist to get a good purchase on the nut and bolt.
Before removing the bolt I moved her to her sick bed.

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I didn`t move her before this as the bed is too low to the ground so I couldn`t swing her arms forward and still have them straight for the bone removal.
Pulled the neck up over the spine and eased the shoulder stumps out through the hole, then removed the bolt.

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Still some TPE to clear out of the way as it flows into the gaps between the clevises during the pour, and bridges one side of the innards to the other, but the spine came out with no problem.

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Retrieve the 2 washers from the cavity then remove the remains of the bandages.
while I was in there I had a feel around under the pelvis. Looking for a hole in the TPE that would match up with a vaginal plug, couldn`t find anything obvious.
Finally wrapped a micro fibre cloth around the clevis fork inside the cavity to protect the TPE.

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After a quick cleanup of the worst of the gunk and mucky fingerprints, made my gal as comfortable as possible, but not sure I like the idea of sleeping next to a headless body, so for the sake of appearances.

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A run down of the joints, with pics, will be coming soon.

Dolly_Llama · Post by **Dolly_Llama** » Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:18 pm

This whole thread is just…wow. Definitely not for the faint hearted. I salute you, sir.

shigowa68 · Post by **shigowa68** » Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:44 pm

Thanks Dolly_llama,
A radical approach I admit, but given the number of joints that need attention and a cut in the TPE for each one. I recon I would have had to make 14 holes rater than 8 to get to them all.

There`s no need to take this approach If your just looking for info on one joint in particular, but if it gives people an insight on what to expect to find and the hardware sizes, then I call it a win.

seagull · Post by **seagull** » Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:26 pm

Yep, 10 out of 10 for this shigowa68

MinniMagg · Post by **MinniMagg** » Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:01 pm

You are certainly dedicated to what you're doing. And you certainly have a lot of skills to help pull it off.

I for one have really appreciated watching your work and seeing the joints in the body. I had never do it myself, but I have a WM doll with a loose hip. After watching and reading your thread, I may just tackle it. I'm decent with cold and hot weld techniques, but opening her up and grinding the welds on the bolts spooked me.

I may just be brave enough to tackle it now

What an outstanding thread!

seagull · Post by **seagull** » Wed Dec 07, 2022 12:39 am

Try not to put too many grinding sparks into the doll, leaves an unsightly mess

shigowa68 · Post by **shigowa68** » Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:55 am

Let`s see what we have.

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Starting with the spine, from the waist up.

The waist:
There are 3 articulations in the waist, lower waist (bend forward/back), upper waist (bend side to side. Never been able to move this one, in either of my dolls) and the waist twist.
The two bending joints are of the same construction.
M12 x 30 bolt (19mm), a washer either side of the eye and a 19mm nut. The nut is welded to the bolt and the bolt head is welded to the clevis.
On the lower joint the nut faces the right of the body ( as viewed from behind).
The nut on the upper joint faces the front of the body.
There are no bumpstops in the waist

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Waist twist:
M10 bolt (17mm, length unknown)
Bolt head welded to the inside of the upper clevis and 2 washers ( thin, brass) above the clevis the bolt then disappears into the land of mystery inside the spine tube.

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The neck:

2 joints here. the lower one is head forward/back, the upper is head side/side. Again both of the same construction.
M10 x 30 bolt (17mm), a washer either side of the eye and a 17mm nut. The nut is welded to the bolt and the bolt head is welded to the clevis.
On the lower joint the nut faces the right of the body ( as viewed from behind). And is also welded in 2 places to the bolt.
The nut on the upper joint faces the front of the body.

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As a side note, there is some height adjustment between the upper joint and the head attachment.
Can`t really make her any taller as it exists, but I can make her a couple or three cm shorter. I know some complain a dolls neck can look too long. A pain to get to though, without cutting the neck open.
M10 x 50 bolt and 2 17mm locking nuts. Head attachment welded to the bolt head. A third 17mm nut is welded to the top of the clevis, and there is a hole in the clevis for the bolt to wind through.

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The shoulder section:
From the spine out.
3 articulations here. Inner shrug (shrug up/down), outer shrug (shrug back/forth), shoulder twist (arm back/forth)
Both of the shrugging joints are:
M10 x30 bolts, head welded to the clevis, and a 17mm nut welded to the bolt.
The nut of the inner joint faces the front of the body and the nut of the outer joint faces upwards.
There is a difference in washer count here.
The inner joint has a wider clevis, so 2 washers either side of the eye, whereas the outer joint has just 1 on each side.
Also, as the clevis is wider and the same length bolt is used, the bolt only reaches half way through the nut. Can be seen in the pics of the neck.

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Shoulder twist:
M10 cap head bolt (8mm allen key), welded to the inside of the arm attachment clevis, 2 thin brass washers sandwich a thicker steel washer, all outside the clevis. Again the bolt disappears into the tube of the shrugging section.

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The arm:
From the top down.
Arm attachment ( arm out to the side )
M10 x 25 Bolt (17mm), head welded to the clevis. 1 washer either side of the eye. 17mm nut welded to the bolt and facing the front of the body.

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Elbow twist:
Located just above the elbow.
M8 cap head bolt ( 6mm Allen key), head welded inside the upper elbow clevis. 2 thin brass washers above the clevis before the bolt disappears into the upper arm tube.

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Elbow:
M8 x 20 button head bolt ( 5mm Allen key). head welded to the clevis with the weld extended to the bumpstop weld, bumpstop runs across the back of the clevis. 1 thin brass washer either side of the eye. 13mm nut welded to the nut but not the bumpstop. On her right arm the nut faces the inside of the arm, on her left arm the nut faces the outside.
All x2.
Operates in much the same way as the as the knee, one side doing the bulk of the work.

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Wrist twist:
Located just below the elbow.
Bolt head welded inside the lower elbow clevis. The weld has melted away a good chunk of the bolt head, can`t get an accurate measurement of the size, best guess, M4 or M5.
2 thin brass washers below the clevis, bolt disappearing into the forearm tube.

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Wrist/hand assembly:
Attaches to the forearm tube with an M8 bolt and locks in place with 2 13mm nuts. No articulation here.

Hand attachment:
Wired hands.
Clevis welded to the head of the above M8 bolt.
Original fixings.
M6 x 15 button head bolt ( 4mm Allen key), head welded to the clevis. Thin brass washer either side of the eye. 10mm nut not welded to anything.
As I replaced her hand some time ago, I don`t remember the orientation of the nuts.

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Looks like there`s nothing we can do with any of these twist joints without any cutting and welding. I did have a play with a couple of them. Rotating them 360 degrees in either direction had no effect on tightness. One of my shoulder twists could do with tightening up, but pretty happy with how all the others are.

Back soon.

Michaelangelo · Post by **Michaelangelo** » Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:01 am

Just an amazing thread... starts off quite mildly so to speak and proceeds to full spinal removal

So interesting and wishing you every success in getting everything how you want it.

And here's me, worrying about closing up the cut in Mira's right hand LOL.

RevJack · Post by **RevJack** » Fri Dec 09, 2022 1:59 pm

Shigowa,
I was thinking, when we reset the torque on these joints, why not drill and pin the nut? I'm hesitating to close up the TPE over my re-tightened joints because I don't really trust loctite threadlock to keep my torque. So why not drill through the nut and 1/2 through the bolt and set a pin?
If I ever have to re-torque I can re-use the hole in the nut and drill 1/2 way into the bolt again.

Anyone can do it, it's more accessible than spot welding like the factory.

Thoughts?

Reverend Jack

seagull · Post by **seagull** » Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:19 pm

You could get lucky with the amount of re-tensioning rotation of the nut
I rather suspect that it will only need a slight movement and have to drill a new hole through the nut, unless the nut is pre-drilled, then the strength of the bolt is compromised with 2 or more holes, personally I'd go for Loctite
I have memories of using the blow torch to weaken the bond on more than a few nuts in my time

shigowa68 · Post by **shigowa68** » Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:04 pm

RevJack wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 1:59 pm Shigowa,
I was thinking, when we reset the torque on these joints, why not drill and pin the nut? I'm hesitating to close up the TPE over my re-tightened joints because I don't really trust loctite threadlock to keep my torque. So why not drill through the nut and 1/2 through the bolt and set a pin?
If I ever have to re-torque I can re-use the hole in the nut and drill 1/2 way into the bolt again.

Anyone can do it, it's more accessible than spot welding like the factory.

Thoughts?

Reverend Jack

Not a terrible idea, and not too difficult to do, even with a hand held drill and a vice. And I share your reluctance to close up the TPE just yet, but I can see few issues.

Ideally the drilling would have to be done after the nut is torqued up for the final time. Inner hip joint with a vaginal entry point?..... You`re a braver man than me.

I can see it would work well if the joint is out of the doll, but I do wonder how would you remove the pin for re-torquing. If it was flush with the face of the nut it would have to be breakable with a spanner. If it sands proud of the nut face so you grab it with pliers, it may gouge the surrounding TPE. Not a problem where the TPE is nice and thick, but areas like wrist, ankle, maybe even elbows, not so sure. A pin all the way through the nut and bolt? Can be driven out with a punch
and still be flush with the nut. Either way, some method of stopping the pin of falling out may be needed, a wrap of XO tape springs to mind.

As some may recall my other hobby is racing a 1/5th scale RC offroad buggy.

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To give you some sense of scale, 820mm long, 480mm wide, wheel diameter 180mm. 26cc tuned petrol engine that will spin up to 18,000 rpm.

Threadlock is a must on this wee beastie. 90% of the bolts have no nut, just screw into a threaded hole. The most prone to working loose are the 8 bolts that hold the entire rear end onto the chassis. 4 of them sit directly under the engine, and blue threadlock will keep them in place to the point that they can sometimes be a bugger to get out again ( countersunk head allen key head). The other 4 sit a little further away from the engine but also hold the lower wishbone in place. Blue theadlock can be hit and miss, but I stick with it for the ease of removing the bolts. Just check them after every run, along with several others. Fellow racers may use red or even green treadlock. Green TL, you may have well welded it together, that shit is insanely strong.

All my Gals nuts are being replaced with nylocs, and a doll is under a lot less stress than an offroad racing buggy that produces around 700 hp per tonne

( yep, a top spec engine produces 6.5 -7 hp, in a car that weighs 9kg).
In short I do trust threadlock. And, from what I`ve seen , joints becoming loose is down to wear in the washers and not nuts working loose.

As I have said her legs are going to have to come out again, and I used red TL, a decision that, right now, I suspect may bite me in the ass.

Thank you Reverend Jack, suggestions always welcome here and I hate raining on other peoples parade, but not for me.

Michaelangelo · Post by **Michaelangelo** » Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:00 pm

Just to ask a tiny q here:does anyone know of an EU equivalent for Loctite? That stuff is insanely expensive here. Is there a brand that makes a comparable product. The only one I found had about 25 cancer warnings and basically said full hazmat suit when applying, so I am guessing that’s more the industrial shit. Is there a comparable maybe French, German brand of something? Mira’s wrist was never loose anyway, so I may just tighten the nylok and have done with it…