Weight Reduction Process - For TPE dolls

muesky6969 · Post by **muesky6969** » Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:24 pm

seagull wrote:muesky
This is so uncharted, I feel like I am totally lost, sometimes

Feeling lost is a common feeling for new owners when they look for guidance on this site, you just happened to have taken this to manufacturing prototyping levels

And we love it!
Might never feel the need to do similar work but knowing someone has is very reassuring for those who choose to follow

Thank you Seagull!!

I honestly wish I be part of the design and production of these dolls. From the ground up I would change it, but sure wish even half of my ideas would be considered.

I just feel this is a challenge that I am willing to face, but I would pay a good hot penny to not be the first... JS

muesky6969 · Post by **muesky6969** » Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:48 pm

So I got the calf muscles inserts carved today. (Pictures are posted below) This has to be done outside because the fumes from the foam is horrible. Now mind you these are not super fancy carved since they are going to be sealed under TPE.. I am trying to figure out if I can add veins before I install the inserts and they will show or if this is something I will need to sculpt into the TPE.. **Sigh**

Yesterday, the massage table came in and it is great, and an awesome deal.. It came with a carrying case, which was not in the description.. The only thing is I ordered a black one and this one is white, but honestly I don't care, especially with the free case. I moved E'agle onto it and it is at the perfect height for me to work on him while sitting in one of my office chairs.

Okay, so I have to confess, I started re-sculpting E'agle's toes so they are shaped like mine. To say my toes are shaped weird is an understatement, but it is a family trait, that was passed to me from my paternal grandmother's family. As I mentioned on another thread, E'agle will be unique from the floor up.. LOL! When they are done I will post pictures on my sculpting thread...

seagull · Post by **seagull** » Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:12 am

Guessing there with be a about 1/2" or more TPE thickness covering the inserts, veins will probably just disappear
Wheezer's technique for veins, while more complex, should give excellent results, hopefully

ShadowFun · Post by **ShadowFun** » Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:40 am

That boy's gonna have some mighty calves! Looking good so far!

Good idea carving outside. Burning foam fumes are nothing to joke about. Likely some serious carcinogens in them.

muesky6969 · Post by **muesky6969** » Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:06 pm

ShadowFun wrote:That boy's gonna have some mighty calves! Looking good so far!

Good idea carving outside. Burning foam fumes are nothing to joke about. Likely some serious carcinogens in them.

Yeah I made the mistake of initially cutting the foam in the house.. Will not do that ever again!!!

If you are heat cutting foam, even outside wear a mask, that crap is toxic for sure.

As for form, this doll is huge and ripped. His calf and thigh muscles are as big as mine and I am not light weight for sure. Once all the inserts are installed I am going to go back and re-sculpt his body to give him more muscle definition.

It is really weird, I can draw and paint okay. Nothing great or something of good quality, but I have always been great at sculpting and carving. There is a small canoe I carved years ago for one of my daughter's school projects, in a museum in town. My mind definitely thinks in 3D. It is weird that all the skill sets I have picked up over the years, are a perfect culmination for working on these dolls. LOL!! In my efforts to be a Renaissance woman, it has all come down to be a doll tinkerer.. LOL!!!

seagull · Post by **seagull** » Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:48 pm

Polyurethane Foam
Firefighters should wear self-contained breathing apparatus
Nasty stuff!

muesky6969 · Post by **muesky6969** » Tue Mar 30, 2021 9:47 pm

Today was the big day!!! Started E'agle's weight reduction..

Let me start off by saying this is absolutely not for those who do not have a strong constitution. I started on his right calf. Basically cut him along his seam and across the back of the ankle, then started hollowing out the extra material. I have had to cut down the foam inserts, and will again because they are still a little too big.. Totally did not take in account for the 3/4" thick layer of TPE out skin. Even with keeping the TPE thick I still took out about 2.5 lbs of TPE out of one calf.. The insert weighs 3-4 oz and the batting I will line the insert with maybe 3-4oz.

So I had this medium size rubbermaid container to put the cut out TPE in.. LOL!! Yeah that will not even hold the material from his calves. Ended up getting a 5 gallon bucket out of one of the storage buildings. I am going to label it "Gut Bucket". The picture below is the bucket with the material I took out of E'agle's leg. Kind of reminds me of the last time I butchered a deer, just not quite as messy. I know know what TPE reminds me of.. liver.. sticky and a bit slimy.. very much like liver.

The second picture is wrapping the leg after gutting. Plastic wrap is your friend everyone, if you are modifying or making repairs. It is great for holding things together and keeping everything clean. You don't want crap to get into the TPE. Also everything will get cleaned thoroughly before I start putting the areas back together..

Considering the amount of TPE I removed from one calf, I am very hopeful E'agle's weight can be reduced by more then I thought initially. Keep in mind his thighs are absolutely huge. They are almost as big as mine. Yes I have big thighs, as my OBGYN said when I was pregnant with my daughter, "You have legs and hips built to pull plows and birth babies". Just what a young woman never wants to hear.. JS

Tomorrow I will take pictures of the hollowed out leg before and after I smooth the TPE out.. It is important that the skin is even before putting the insert in.. Smoothing will take an evening to do but it will give it more of a natural skin look. I am also thinking I can use rope and thin cable applied to the insert and I will get the vein look. So if I am not totally wiped out Thursday after getting my second dose of Covid vaccine I will start the second leg on Thursday. But if my reaction is anything as bad as the first dose, I am probably going to be out for the count..

I am still trying to figure out how to attach the insert to the skeleton. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

So at some point I will make videos on the process, but not on E'agle. Maybe Cleo or Xiel. Here is the thing, if this is something any of you are considering, you best practice with tools you are using, especially if you are using a hot knife. One wrong move and you will have a serious repair to make. The hot knife cuts TPE like butter. Also make sure if you do screw something up, like I did with Cleo and cut a hole in the back of her thigh you know how to do a good job of patching them back up, so it doesn't show. If it wasn't out of absolute necessity of needing to get my dolls weight down, I sure the hell wouldn't do this.. But I think once I get used to doing this, it won't be as a big deal.

Well I need a drink, eat my birthday artichoke and go to bed, after this.

seagull · Post by **seagull** » Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:44 pm

Any plastic to metal bonding is going to need some really good adhesive, epoxy, etc.

muesky6969 · Post by **muesky6969** » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:46 pm

Okay, so I apologize for not posting anything in a while but there really hasn't been anything to post. Time and feeling like crap after getting my second Covid vaccination last week has put a halt on getting anything done on E'agle, but that may not be exactly a bad thing.

So mind you I did not sleep last night..

And several members here have brought up possibly using spray foam to fill in the cavities once hollowed out. Well, that has been rolling around in my brain for a while now, but here are my concerns and I could really... really use some feedback.

First concern - Strength of the foam insulation. Is the foam strong enough to handle say a body laying on it, in addition to the dolls weight?

Second concern - Will the foam damage or will the TPE react to it?? Most spray foam is made from polyurethane, but so is the foam I bought to make inserts. I have had a piece of TPE laying on a block of the foam I have to make inserts for several days and it is totally the same, maybe a bit dry but that maybe because it has not oil on it and it is sitting in the open air on the foam..

Third concern - How do I make sure all the area inside is filled?

Fourth concern - How do I keep from over filling the areas. This stuff expands I don't want to bust the doll open because I sprayed to much foam in..

There are probably more questions. I need to talk to my bestie's brother, since he does home repair and improvements and see what he know about the stuff. This week I am going to pick up a few different brands and start experimenting.

Here is the thing, the dolls will still need to be cut open and their TPE scooped out, but the hot knife makes that so much easier and quicker. Plus, with the blades I have and I can make a variety of sized loop blades to make the cuts smoother and cleaner, that is what is so damn cool about this knife, that part of the equation is taken care of. The problem is, I am finding it time consuming and challenging to cuts the foam pieces into the right shape to fit in the cavities I cut. And cutting it I have to wear a respirator, even outside because that crap is toxic as hell. It also makes it very important that the areas that are cut out are smooth, or I have to go in and smooth them out so that it doesn't cause weird bumps and bulges..

Since I have 4 dolls all of which are different sizes and musculature, it is not like I can make the same set for each. E'agle is 5'9" and has the muscle structure of a body builder, and I am only going to emphasize that. Xiel 5'6" is more like a well toned older man, and Agares 5'3" has more of a runners body. Cleo 4'9" is more of a small curvy fairy.

I need something to make this process happen faster and easier.. Any suggestions, ideas or if you know of where I can get these things, it would be greatly appreciated.

seagull · Post by **seagull** » Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:41 pm

Tricky this is, getting the muscle carved to sit inside a cavity, leaving enough TPE thickness to cover and still look natural
The muscles are carved and your eye has guided your hollowing out of the cavities

Fitting the two together and being prepared for a bit of muscle trimming would be the best option
You would not want to remove more TPE than your good sense has already told you to scoop out

Once this part is completed to your satisfaction, the next one will be a bit easier

ShadowFun · Post by **ShadowFun** » Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:37 am

The expanding foam is an interesting idea but without hard surfaces to contain it, it seems like it will produce random results and not look right. Possibly, if you used a hard foam sheet to make a "box" muscle insert and then filled it with the foam? This might let you lay up the outer surface of the insert, complete with muscle and vein texture, then fill it to get the volume you want.

Oh, did I read that right in an earlier post? Happy belated birthday!

PS... Just had a hot idea! What about making the insert "box" out of that foam clay MX-V has mastered? I have never actually seen the stuff tho...

muesky6969 · Post by **muesky6969** » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:12 pm

ShadowFun wrote:The expanding foam is an interesting idea but without hard surfaces to contain it, it seems like it will produce random results and not look right. Possibly, if you used a hard foam sheet to make a "box" muscle insert and then filled it with the foam? This might let you lay up the outer surface of the insert, complete with muscle and vein texture, then fill it to get the volume you want.

Oh, did I read that right in an earlier post? Happy belated birthday!

PS... Just had a hot idea! What about making the insert "box" out of that foam clay MX-V has mastered? I have never actually seen the stuff tho...

Thank ShadowFun! It was my big 50 this year!! Spent 1/2 century on this rock.. LOL!

Yeah that was a concern to about not having a solid surface to contain it, until I read this review on Amazon from a lady who used it to make a body form for sewing projects and she just used duct tape and plastic wrap to hold the foam in.. She posted a picture and it turned out really good.

So the Sandman has been hiding from me the last few days, the sorry SOB, which has given me more unwanted waking hours and I think I may have solved several of the problems. First about it setting up inside the cavities I cut out and being bumpy and weird. So if I just mimic what the woman on Amazon did, and wrap the area outside with plastic wrap and tape so it force the foam into the correct form. Still will need to make sure the inner tpe surfaces are smooth or there will be a lot of weird lumps and bumps.

To prevent any possible reaction between the TPE and foam, I am going to first line the cavity with cotton batting, then a layer of polyfil. That should provide a decent barrier between the TPE and foam. Also the batting especially in the chest will be like the sack we have that holds our guts in and the polyfil will simulate the fat layer between the bone and skin.. (I am going to need to pick up a couple of different thickness layers of polyfil). Also this will also hopefully keep the foam from having the weirds lumps and bumps, as well.

To make sure the area is fill, I am going to have to have multiple injection sites. The calves I think 3, thighs 4-5 and the chest cavity about 8-10, because how big E'agle is. I decided I am probably going to do his upper arms, as well. The more weight I get off of him the better, and the more realistic his body will feel.

For the issue of it over expanding, I was watching a video on how they blow this foam into pre-existing walls. What they did is drilled over flow holes, so the excess foam would just push out the holes and not crack the sheet rock. So that got me thinking.. Why not insert hoses or thick boba straws on the opposite side of where I am spraying in the foam and if it expands to much it will be forced out the hose/straws. With the plastic wrap and tape that should prevent it from causing the tpe to expand. Once the foam has set up, break off the straw/hose and fill in the hole with paste. And since I am going to be texturing his skin anyway if there is a bit of color variance it will just look like part of the scales.

Of course all of this is mute if the strength of the foam is not up to snuff.. But from the research I have read the foam is actually pretty tough. It not only has to help support the weight and form of the doll, but it has to be able to withstand the weight of another body, and if heaven forbid the doll gets dropped it doesn't fracture. So fingers crossed.

I have to go into town tomorrow for work so I will stop by Lowes and pick up a few cans to experiment with. I will post my findings...

matt gloss · Post by **matt gloss** » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:29 am

Loving this thread

ShadowFun · Post by **ShadowFun** » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:38 pm

Well my new lady has arrived and woof... she’s a bit heavier than I’m prepared for. She also, to my eyes, could use some body sculpt adjustments. One of the things I love about your process is your willingness to attack brand new dolls. I’ve been telling myself I’ll “do something” once the doll starts to develop issues someday. Maybe I shouldn’t wait to create the vision I want...