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RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

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LaDollyVita
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by LaDollyVita »

I completely missed the fact you took in a Sanhui 165. Is there an intro thread? I feel like I'm missing something obvious. :-/

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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by mi6c »

LaDollyVita wrote:I completely missed the fact you took in a Sanhui 165. Is there an intro thread? I feel like I'm missing something obvious. :-/
:D
Thanks for dropping by. :)
Nah, you're observant enough, this is the first thread. :wink:
For the time being I wish to learn more about repairs and I liked this bodies shape when it appeared on the market, so when one came up reasonably priced I got lucky and got her. :thumbs_up:
If I decide to keep her I'll have to come up with some name and personality but for the moment I am trying to fix her and hopefully do more good than harm along the way. :idea:

Kind regards.
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by GirlsGang »

My proposal:
Use a thin wall steel tube with appropriate inner diameter to fit over the pins and ~1 mm wall thickness and glue it with "UHU Endfest 300" to both ends. You should be able to do that for one end first and then stretch the hand to fit the tube over the other end. Bonding areas should be clean and grease free, a little grinding helps also.
Warming the bonding area to 80°C for an hour will strenghten the bond (should be no problem for silicon).
Just looked again at the picture :roll:
On the left side there is some white material. This is hard foam and there is the possibilty to get some more bonding length on the "pin" by cutting off the white material.
I know this from a Sanhui88 neck repair :evil:

Good luck :!:
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by LaDollyVita »

mi6c wrote:for the moment I am trying to fix her and hopefully do more good than harm along the way. :idea:
All the best then! I'm sure you'll make a positive difference in this young rubber lass' artificial life. :thumbs_up:

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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by mi6c »

GirlsGang wrote:My proposal:
Use a thin wall steel tube with appropriate inner diameter to fit over the pins and ~1 mm wall thickness and glue it with "UHU Endfest 300" to both ends. You should be able to do that for one end first and then stretch the hand to fit the tube over the other end. Bonding areas should be clean and grease free, a little grinding helps also.
Warming the bonding area to 80°C for an hour will strenghten the bond (should be no problem for silicon).
Just looked again at the picture :roll:
On the left side there is some white material. This is hard foam and there is the possibilty to get some more bonding length on the "pin" by cutting off the white material.
I know this from a Sanhui88 neck repair :evil:

Good luck :!:
Thanks for the luck. :)
This is extremely close to what I plan on doing, thanks a lot for your detailed suggestion.
Unfortunately just shortly before the hard foam the rods diameter widens, so unless I'd manually taper the tube to gain maybe 1mm more overlap the only other solution would be a larger inner diameter tube, meaning significantly worse fit to the rest.

Kind regards.
優月( Yuzuki) - Orient Industry Koyuki head / Silicone Art Super Styling(SS) body
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by mi6c »

LaDollyVita wrote:All the best then! I'm sure you'll make a positive difference in this young rubber lass' artificial life. :thumbs_up:
Well, I'll certainly try not to make a negative one, but her previous owner did care very well for her and even arranged her travel accommodation with great care.

Kind regards.
優月( Yuzuki) - Orient Industry Koyuki head / Silicone Art Super Styling(SS) body
艶( Tsuya) - Orient Industry Izumi head on Jewel Real Taste 146(L) body
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by TheIQF++ »

Dollstudio wrote:
TheIQF++ wrote:I got loose joints in mine. :( I'm looking for a way to not only tighten them, but to keep them from coming loose again.
Have you considered Loctite 242 "medium strength mil-spec blue threadlocker" for the joints?

http://www.na.henkel-adhesives.com/prod ... 7716250625

Sandro
Doh! I didn't even think of that. Thanks for showing the right kind to use. I ordered some of that right away.
I'll have to fix her shoulder eventually.
mi6c wrote:Foorrr Scciiieeeennnnncccccceeeeeee :wink:
OK, fun aside, I have no immediate plan for the elbows as they are currently still fine as is - albeit limited to 90 degree angles - this is something I find interesting enough to consider improving, but not for right now.
I do however have issues with joints too loose to hold positions, one in each shoulder, funny enough different ones, so there is a certain likelyhood that investigating there would be next on the menu.
Maybe I'll catch up to you by then and we can compare notes. Right now I have some other repairs to do first. I want to fix her loose shoulder for sure, but the wrist being loose will have to be addressed too. It does not look broken but if it ever does break, I'll hope you have a 3D printed fix by then. I want her elbows and knees to bend more than 90 degrees so it would be nice if I could fix them all at once.
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImage

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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by samara78 »

Her previous owner not having much guidence in range of motion was moving her hand side to side to side. The hand on this first gen model was only meant to move up and down. You coul weld if you cut the silicone furthe away you. Could weld in a bit of new material.
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by mi6c »

samara78 wrote:Her previous owner not having much guidence in range of motion was moving her hand side to side to side. The hand on this first gen model was only meant to move up and down. You coul weld if you cut the silicone furthe away you. Could weld in a bit of new material.
Hi, Samara - if I had the skill and equipment to attempt welding, I'd very likely do so, but alas, for now I have neither.

As for the design meant to only move up and down, that is definitively not so - in fact from the pictures posted it should be clear that the lower arm ends in a ball joint at the wrist towards the hand - I may try to make more pictures as TheIQF++ will likely need the best information I can provide as well.
The wrist joints design is meant to handle up/down, left/right and rotation all in one - a pretty good design, but, as TheIQF++ has pointed out with the caveat that it may become loose at some point - if it would have re-adjustable holding strength or just keep its grip over time it would be perfect.
With that said, inexperienced user error is certainly as much a cause for the damage as is the missing limits and too weak rod.
These first two movements are usually credited with the damage:
Image
Image
However, I believe that these actually contributed more:
Image
Image
If staying within reasonable angles the chances of breakage should be vastly reduced, like so:
Image
Image
All pictures above referenced from here:
http://www.dollforum.com/forum/viewtopi ... 61&t=70767

The stuff I needed to order finally arrived so the adventure will continue soon. :wink:

Kind regards
優月( Yuzuki) - Orient Industry Koyuki head / Silicone Art Super Styling(SS) body
艶( Tsuya) - Orient Industry Izumi head on Jewel Real Taste 146(L) body
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by mi6c »

Lets continue, shall we.
So I ordered something I thought would make a good sleeve:
Stainless steel, sleek at about 1mm wall thickness, inner diameter 3.4mm, length 8mm, looks like these:
Sanhui165wrist05.jpg
Sanhui165wrist05.jpg (62.22 KiB) Viewed 2377 times
I thought it ok for them to be open( due to the strong material used), in fact I did hope to see how well they fit over the ends.
Those thoughts were correct, I could see the fit was pretty good, though at 8mm length it left a bit of a gap in the middle and the "sleeving" was close and the material seemed strong enough to do the task.

I also ordered some glue I considered appropriate after some research, a 2 component epoxy meant specifically for strong metal to metal connections with a 5 minute mix and apply window, a roughly 4h "hand strength" duration and 24h until final hardness enabling metal processing such as drilling and filing.
Sanhui165wrist07.jpg
Sanhui165wrist07.jpg (254.77 KiB) Viewed 2377 times
That glue came with pretty severe warnings about eye and skin issues and recommendations to use gloves and eye protection, the latter is usually a good idea anyway.
So on a first attempt I was using gloves and I guess it might just be me, but I cannot work equally well wearing them, so I did not manage to apply the glue as I wanted but tried anyway.
After about an hour I had 2nd thoughts and rechecked and decided to cancel this attempt and try again for a better one as I could see the glue not being everywhere I'd want it to be.
So I made that 2nd attempt, got the glue on way better( didn't use gloves this time but was extra careful) and put it all together again.
I let it settle for about 36h.
The result is what you see - uhm, yes, a second glue-ish sleeve on the table to be photographed.
Sanhui165wrist06.jpg
Sanhui165wrist06.jpg (114.33 KiB) Viewed 2377 times
So in short - utter failure. :cry:
Yes, the glue got where is should have been and the sleeve was a good close one - it just didn't hold together at all.

So, we're back to square( or round stumps) one but probably gained a little knowledge.
To that extend - the glue is in a double cartridge supposed to be putting out the same amount of the two components for mixing - that does not work well and I will try to break it apart in between in order to use them one at a time, not sure I will give the glue another chance on this particular repair though.

The other recommended and possible "sleeving" is by using a large diameter coupling and set/grub screws to tighten against the rod stumps - here is a picture of a shaft coupling from EBAY roughly giving you an idea of what that might look like:
Sanhui165wrist08.jpg
Sanhui165wrist08.jpg (19.54 KiB) Viewed 2377 times
Just ignore the flexible section in the middle and assume maybe another 2 screws 90 degrees off at each end.
What is immediately clear is that the diameter is huge compared to the initial rods, so even if I could get something like this or 3d print it myself it would inhibit basically all of the movement on the balljoint due to colliding after just a few degrees, making the hand kinda almost a fixed one.

I have one more idea based on a modification of this last approach that I will try and after that its either welding( which I cannot do) or taking apart on a large scale in order to come up with a completely new joint.

Kind regards
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by hollows+fentiman »

Brave attempt mate! Did you clean the metal rod with acetone first? It's likely that there would have been a coating of silicone oils on it which would inhibit bonding.
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by mi6c »

hollows+fentiman wrote:Brave attempt mate! Did you clean the metal rod with acetone first? It's likely that there would have been a coating of silicone oils on it which would inhibit bonding.
Good point, should have been in the write-up.
Aye, I certainly did.
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by GirlsGang »

Maybe I can encourage you for a different procedure :roll:

Guess you are already mixing some 5 grams of each on a plate.
Put the glue on the pins and then put the sleeve over the pins (try "Schaschlik-Spiess" (wooden) as pins for a test)
Then fill the gap of the sleeve using a tooth pick with the bonding material.
If that works, do it on the real thing.
If it does not work, try UHU Endfest, it has 10 minutes potting time and gets more fluid when warmed up a little after application.
I am bonding a diameter 35mm frp mount for 1 KW electric motor in a rc-plane going 100 mph with the UHU stuff 8O
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by mi6c »

GirlsGang wrote:Maybe I can encourage you for a different procedure :roll:

Guess you are already mixing some 5 grams of each on a plate.
Put the glue on the pins and then put the sleeve over the pins (try "Schaschlik-Spiess" (wooden) as pins for a test)
Then fill the gap of the sleeve using a tooth pick with the bonding material.
If that works, do it on the real thing.
If it does not work, try UHU Endfest, it has 10 minutes potting time and gets more fluid when warmed up a little after application.
I am bonding a diameter 35mm frp mount for 1 KW electric motor in a rc-plane going 100 mph with the UHU stuff 8O
Thanks for your support.
I just ordered that UHU Plus Endfest 300, probably should have done so in the first place.
Then again, can't hurt to have a little more glue at my disposal, and the UHU is slightly more than double strength on bonding and likely even better to handle.
Not sure if I will try it with the above pictured sleeves again or combine it with what I have in mind, but I will use it on the next attempt and go with your suggestion to apply it.
As for the resulting bond, it should have been strong enough and one can see the glue spread very well on the 2nd attempt pin so I kinda wonder if the direction of force being a tilting( up/down, right/left) or shearing( rotate) might just not be good enough as opposed to pulling( spec of the glue).
Since you are using the UHU - do you consider using Acetone to clean the pins beforehand good enough or should I use something else there as well or instead?

Kind regards.
優月( Yuzuki) - Orient Industry Koyuki head / Silicone Art Super Styling(SS) body
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by GirlsGang »

Having the surfaces "fatfree" is always a good idea with smooth surfaces.
If you can manage to get some roughness by grinding helps also.
Acetone will work, I am using break-cleaner, it vents off without residue (most autoparts / motorcycle shops have it as spray can)
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