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RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by mi6c »

Well, its been a while - sorry.

If you're just looking for a result you can stop reading and come back later - its not done yet.

If you're interested in what went on, I'll try to explain below.

Considering the ups( good grip) and downs( too large) of something like the shaft connector pictured in the last post I thought about something that may not be fully round but still allow gripping onto the rod ends with screws.
Looking for stuff that might already be available I thought about these units - intended to connect cables.
Sanhui165wrist09.jpg
Sanhui165wrist09.jpg (205.69 KiB) Viewed 2952 times
They feature a round opening on both sides and one screw on each side for tightening the wires or in our case the rod ends.
Sanhui165wrist10.jpg
Sanhui165wrist10.jpg (202.08 KiB) Viewed 2952 times
Here you can see single ones cut out of the plastic - the two I had were just slightly too small so I needed to get one meant for larger wires.
I also found the screws to be lacking in being both too nimble and too long - they're meant to lock wires down, not just lock onto a rod end almost filling the cylinder, so I ordered shorter ones - you can see one each of the original and replacement on the upper left connector.
Sanhui165wrist11.jpg
Sanhui165wrist11.jpg (203.21 KiB) Viewed 2952 times
The new ones use an allen key, good to handle, there is also a tiny strip of sandpaper that I used.
Sanhui165wrist12.jpg
Sanhui165wrist12.jpg (185.06 KiB) Viewed 2952 times
For reference, here is the glue used this time.
Sanhui165wrist13.jpg
Sanhui165wrist13.jpg (310.32 KiB) Viewed 2952 times
On 1st attempt I used the strip of sandpaper on the two rod ends and surrounding area, then cleaned with Q-tips and Aceton.
Next I mixed the glue, put some on each rod end, then some into the cylinder, attached the cylinder onto one end, tighened the screw enough so be stable, inserted the other rod end and tighened both screws as much as I dared.
The I let it cure for about 36h or so.
I could move the hand up and down ok a few times afterwards, but it resisted movement sideways and after trying with a little more force the end at the arm came off.

Well, not good, but the considerable force it had taken let me to investigate the rotation mechanism a little closer.
Its always easier in hindsight, but I should have done that before I guess - I just didn't want to tamper with the bandages around the joint that the silicon sticks to very well.

Turns out apologies and corrections are in order - my only excuse is that I must have been deluded by all the posts about chinese improvements I read of late to actually think they would have done an elaborate ball joint.

This joint is a simple hinge - it will only do an up/down movement, so Samara's comment that the sideways movement is considered the main cause is spot-on, any such movement or an attempt to rotate the hand instead of the arm will result in damaging the fragile rod from this joint to the hand - however, going beyond about 60/75ish degrees up and down will as well.

Alright, knowing this now I made a second attempt, this time starting by using a power tool( Dremel) on the rod ends non-broken sides to try gaining a tiny bit more overlap for the sleeve, after that, same procedure as above.
Even being careful I did hit the outer silicon with the dremel slipping and gripping into silicon a few times - oh, well.
Sanhui165wrist14.jpg
Sanhui165wrist14.jpg (253.06 KiB) Viewed 2952 times
Again, it held ok for some up and down movements, but I do want the hand to be somewhat useable again so before attempting to just glue the arm back together I wanted to make sure it would hold - well, it didn't - it just came off again on what was about a 60/75 degree downward move.

To sum it up:
Yes, a lot better than before ... but still not good enough.

So TheIQF++ will get his wish and I'll have to take this apart further still( he actually means well and really wishes me luck but is curious because he will face similar issues).

Stay tuned for further revelations, including Sanhuis way of threadlocking.

Kind regards.
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by hollows+fentiman »

Good attempt mate! At least you're not giving up! I really hope you find a way without having to cut right back and weld! If you have to do that, there are some plumbers tools like a freezing collar that will take the heat away from the vulnerable arm (used to freeze water in pipes so a soldering weld can be done on a water pipe!).
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by mi6c »

Lets continue.

When I choose this to become a reference thread I did not initially anticipate it to go this far, but alas, so be it.
And again, if you're just looking for a solution, come back later as its not done yet.
This post is for reference purposes mostly.

In order to take a closer look at the joint, I decided to cut further into the arm and then also cut away on the material surrounding the joint:
Sanhui165wrist15.jpg
Sanhui165wrist15.jpg (213.56 KiB) Viewed 3195 times
After getting rid of that material:
Sanhui165wrist16.jpg
Sanhui165wrist16.jpg (229.47 KiB) Viewed 3195 times
At the latest at this point, but maybe even earlier being able to weld would have been a useful skill - not one I have though.
If you look closely you will see a blob of metal above the nut on top and another one on the nut securing the U-Joint to the arm bone square metal end.
That's thread locking :evil: , well, I'll admit its somewhat secure. :roll:
OK, since I can't weld and the glued & bolted sleeve didn't do it I decided to take the joint apart using a dremel to cut through the welded nut.
Here's what the assembly looks like( apart from two washers):
Sanhui165wrist17.jpg
Sanhui165wrist17.jpg (132.87 KiB) Viewed 3195 times
And, before I do more commentary, here is what the arm looks like now after I cut even further and took a little of the "foam core" off it:
Sanhui165wrist18.jpg
Sanhui165wrist18.jpg (337.77 KiB) Viewed 3195 times
Funny enough while testing a fit for a replacement into the U-shape( that had previously been fixed) the U rotated slightly and it dawned on me that this is actually the mechanism for hand rotation( verified by feeling the still intact arm while rotating the hand a bit) and not just an odd holding mechanism for the up/down joint.

Lets go back one picture and take a closer look at what I mistook for a ball joint initially.
In a setup like this it should be an eye-bolt.
What it actually is, is two nuts welded together with the connection rod to the hand welded onto them.
Those two nuts still have their threading inside, so they are larger than the outer thread on the bolt going through them in order to allow them to rotate on it.
Apart from dirt, there is nothing in between those threads, so its rolling one larger thread over a smaller one.

I am a bit undecided about the U-bracket at the moment.
It can now be rotated a bit, but there is an area of looseness already where the hand would not remains at that angle.
Unfortunately I do not see a way to get rid of the threadlock securing it without destroying the thread and thereby the mounting mechanism in the process.
So - as I see it - I either live with the rotation deficiency as it is now and just make the next attempt on fixing the joint and hand connection - or I need to take of a bit more than just the U-bracket and then create a "sleeve" over the square metal in the arm, allowing for a completely new rotation joint, admittedly with another uncertainty of that one being functionally better or not at all. :|

Maybe someone has an idea on how to get rid of the weld blob securing the nut without destroying the thread/nut. :idea: :?:

To my perception there is a huge discrepancy here with Sanhui - I do admire their sculptors, their silicone is done well and for all I have seen so far adheres really good to the bone structure and even the few welds I have seen look OK to my untrained eye, but I must say that at this point I would suggest they either hire better engineers or fire the bean counters that directed their engineers to create this crap :x - unless this is done on purpose to limit the useful lifespan of the dolls and make them unserviceable. :cry:

That's it for now.

Kind regards.
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by hollows+fentiman »

Jeepers mi6c! What a load of botching! Surely this is not the best the skeleton makers can come up with? They must be laughing all the way to the bank! It's nearly as bad as the infamous gooseneck!
As for the u bracket, it looks like it won't come off, break or bend without considerable force. If it actually moves around the thread is there any point in replacing it or getting it off? Even if it is a bit tight most doll joints need a bit of resistance to move them or they would be 'floppy' joints and not hold in position.
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by mi6c »

hollows+fentiman wrote:If it actually moves around the thread is there any point in replacing it or getting it off? Even if it is a bit tight most doll joints need a bit of resistance to move them or they would be 'floppy' joints and not hold in position.
Well, the issue is that while the U-bracket now moves or rather rotates a certain angle it does so in a reasonably tight way for about 2/3 of the angular movement and in a floppy way for the remaining 1/3.
If there would be a way to safely keep the thread and install washers and a useful nut one could possibly maybe readjust it for better behaviour.

Kind regards.
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by mi6c »

Time for another update.

We ended with an open U-bracket previously and I decided that it was to stay in place for the time being - basically do not unnecessarily destroy anything that may still be useful.
The U-bracket is able to fully rotate with some resistance over most of the turn now, so should be good enough for "underarm/hand rotation".

I decided to go for the "grip rod end with screws" design alike the shaft coupling pictured previously but create a shaped part instead of using the bulky cylinders available off the shelf.
In order to do so I created a first "proof pf concept" part using 3d construction and printing that looked like this:
Sanhui165wrist19.jpg
Sanhui165wrist19.jpg (459.98 KiB) Viewed 3139 times
This was mainly used to check fitting and sizes and get an idea what it would look like when connected - both to the rod end( 4 screw side) as well as to the U-bracket.
After gathering said info I designed and printed a 2nd part:
Sanhui165wrist20.jpg
Sanhui165wrist20.jpg (307.62 KiB) Viewed 3139 times
And to give you a better idea, here's what test fitting that part looked like:
Sanhui165wrist21.jpg
Sanhui165wrist21.jpg (772.28 KiB) Viewed 3139 times
One of the features this 2nd part has over the initial one is an end stop for the case where the doll would be on "all fours" with her hands flat for support:
Sanhui165wrist22.jpg
Sanhui165wrist22.jpg (274.34 KiB) Viewed 3139 times
And finally here are 2 pictures of the fitted assembly:
Sanhui165wrist23.jpg
Sanhui165wrist23.jpg (470.99 KiB) Viewed 3139 times
Sanhui165wrist24.jpg
Sanhui165wrist24.jpg (304.99 KiB) Viewed 3139 times
This actually works well so far:
I could give considerable pressure on it simulating the support with flat hand case.
The hand is movable into any up/down position in between about 90up(end stop) and 80 degrees down( no stop, but will look unnaturally and still work) and will hold that position.
With the hand angled preferably near or at stop upwards rotating the hand/underarm along the axis works.

The screws used to hold/clamp the rod end are M3x4 for the upper and lower ones and M3x10 for right and left - I basically had the M3x4 from the 2nd attempt and the M3x10 from other stuff I did.
I consider the adapter as it is now a good attempt but If I were to reconstruct it again I would still modify it a bit, the main change would be to use grub/set screws instead of the ones I used because they would allow for more thread to be there on the up/down clamp( using M3x7) and take less space on the right/left clamp( still M3x10).
The U-bracket connection is using an M4x25 screw, 6 large diameter washers and a nyloc selflocking nut.

What remains to be done is to stitch her together again without making her look like Frankensteins bride and then hope this connection will hold a while.

Thanks to everyone for your moral and informal support. :D :thumbs_up:

Kind regards.
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by hollows+fentiman »

Cool! What a difference! These 3D printer are so good as long as you get the design process right I presume? Is the plastic able to withstand lateral movement on the lugs and any wear and tear adjacent to the movement against the metal? Sorry, awkward questions I'm sure you've asked yourself!
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by mi6c »

hollows+fentiman wrote:Cool! What a difference! These 3D printer are so good as long as you get the design process right I presume? Is the plastic able to withstand lateral movement on the lugs and any wear and tear adjacent to the movement against the metal? Sorry, awkward questions I'm sure you've asked yourself!
I'll gladly try to answer your questions in detail :) ... if I understood them 8O ... so before I write some completely off stuff, would you mind to try again and break down your questions by using some other wording?
Sorry, and kind regards.
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by samara78 »

Incredible stuff! Happy you were able to get her going again. Great stuff here Mi6c
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by hollows+fentiman »

Sorry mate, it was written in a hurry - needed to eat!
I was wondering how well the thinner bits of plastic that I call lugs would stand up to a sideways movement as my DS minis have a plastic skeleton that snap on the 'lugs' if you move the joint the wrong way! Their plastic is something like ABS and hard, yours look softer. Also, because it does look softer, when the joint is moving the right way, do you think the metal the plastic is moving against will wear the plastic down?
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by HotDiggityDoll »

Great repair work. :thumbs_up:

3D printer is going on my list of things to get some day.
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by mi6c »

samara78 wrote:Incredible stuff! Happy you were able to get her going again. Great stuff here Mi6c
Thanks muchly Sam - it means a lot coming from you.
All the best!
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by mi6c »

ks wrote:Great repair work. :thumbs_up:

3D printer is going on my list of things to get some day.
Thankies :)
If you do I recommend talking to MF and maybe a few of the others in the inventor forum as 3d printing is a lot or promises and little substance.

Kind regards.
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by mi6c »

hollows+fentiman wrote:Cool! What a difference! These 3D printer are so good as long as you get the design process right I presume? Is the plastic able to withstand lateral movement on the lugs and any wear and tear adjacent to the movement against the metal? Sorry, awkward questions I'm sure you've asked yourself!
hollows+fentiman wrote:Sorry mate, it was written in a hurry - needed to eat!
I was wondering how well the thinner bits of plastic that I call lugs would stand up to a sideways movement as my DS minis have a plastic skeleton that snap on the 'lugs' if you move the joint the wrong way! Their plastic is something like ABS and hard, yours look softer. Also, because it does look softer, when the joint is moving the right way, do you think the metal the plastic is moving against will wear the plastic down?
OK, lets see if I manage - if not you'll have to ask again :razz:
I will guess "lugs" means those two extra sections I put on the main rotation axis that were not present in the first "proof of concept" part.
But lets start with 3d construction and printing.
The promise is that you almost automagically create your vision in an easy to handle possibly free 3d program and then press the print button once satisfied to get your perfect real life part.
Even if you smile at the slight exaggeration of the line I just wrote I am pretty sure you're ill prepared for how far away the truth is.
So - to answer the question - yes, 3d printers are good if you get the whole process from design to print pretty much exactly right - and even I, having prepared for a long time to delve into it and being of a scientific nature, was unprepared for the staggering amount of sometimes mutually interdependent variables involved.
Now for the "normal" wear of the lugs and center section by using the desired up/down hand rotation - to be honest that remains to be seen and is something I am interested to find out about, my estimate is that it will hold up significantly longer than the original all-metal design.

Now for the lateral movement - there is quite something to consider here, the main point being the question of where the force gets applied.
My best guess is that currently the point where the broken connection rod stump is clamped and glued( UHU 300 like in 2nd attempt) to the printed part is likely the weakest point in the chain - especially so for this lateral movement case, but likely also for attempted rotational movement - so I would expect this to break free again first under stress.
Assuming you either continue after having ripped off the hand sideways already or instead choose to apply the force directly to the front of the printed part( sideways) I would guess the next thing to happen the U-bracket to bend until it hits the center nut and after that you'll rip of the lug closest to the force and then the center section and other side lug shortly after.
I am pretty sure that you cannot force the lug-break without using tools though, the hand itself, due to the large lever is a different matter.

Hope this is what you were curious about.

Kind regards.
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Re: RnC Sanhui165 broken wrist

Post by hollows+fentiman »

Thanks mi6c! Yes!

I have been curious as to whether a 3D printer could solve some of the issues I've had with the DS minis. The really hard plastic they've used is strong but brittle if it gets any force sideways as it were. The plastic coming out of the printer looks less brittle and, although looking strong, it probably has a lot more 'give' in it!
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