Breakthrough new doll skin method...

[opendolldesign]

Thanks

I have seen you mention placing latex ballons filled w/ sodium poly in the silicon skins. I'm not sure which one, but either latex or TPE is not compatable w/ silicone. Hard to keep this all in my head.

The compatibility from charts as well as my personal experience and testing is as follows:

Silicone/TPR or TPE: Oil in the TPE is pulled out after prolonged contact with silicone.

Any type of cured Silicone/Any type of Latex: Completely compatible, no leeching.

Uncured Platinum Silicone/Cured Natural Latex: Not good! Will usually cause the silicone to not cure some or all the way through.

Uncured Platinum Silicone/Cured Synthetic Latex: In my tests, cured synthetic latex never caused any cure inhibition of my platinum silicones.

...maybe I should make a silicone insert for her too?

Might as well, I recommend using Smooth-On Eco-Flex gel with a bit of their Slacker additive to make it really soft. It may wear out faster than the TPR/TPE but it would be easy to mix up a new batch and re-coat the inside of the vagina any time.

[opendolldesign]

However, if an errant did this in his or her basement or garage n undercut the competition then the major doll manufacturer may consider redisigning there process to compete with the lower price.

Indeed. The benefit to the manufacturer is that the cost would be significantly less to produce and with the less likelihood for mistakes/botched dolls, they may actually make more money with less work, even if they cut their prices in half or more!

The next phase that worries me is the internal skeleton n foam body. How does one keep it cheap?

No worries my friend! Most of the cost of a doll is due to the expensive cost of platinum silicone. The skeleton accounts for a small portion of the total cost of a doll.

N if u fill it wit that sodium polyacrylate does it all weigh 50lb or more? The whole point of sil skin is to make it ultra light to carry.

More good news, the density of Sodium Polyacrylate makes it very similar to the weight of Silicone... BUT combining it with foam you only need to use it in the key spots, breast, butt and thighs. Therefore it could actually be made as light as the lightest silicone doll yet be MORE realistic at the same time.

[opendolldesign]

This is all great and all but .. I dont see any pics of any dolls..
Id like to see the end results of this method..

Me to! As I said in a few posts back:

Really the only things holding me back right now from doing a full skin is I am out of silicone from all my testing and need to save up the $ to get enough for a full doll as well as a mannequin. So I figured by posting the info here, someone may beat me to it and make a skin of their own!

I have pretty much done the testing with materials to verify the concept is practical. Considering that the cost is substantially lower than a top of the line doll and the results are likely to be similar, Im sure there is at least 1 person here with the desire and skill to make a full doll this way, and in less time than it will take me to save up the $ and acquire the final resources to make my own doll. This would be a benefit to all on this forum.

Think of it this way, with the results of my testing I am satisfied with the concept, now I would like to pass the torch to someone who is an action taker and can see how this will work and potentially make a welcome change the doll manufacturing market. I mean, who doesn't want lower prices, higher realism?

[opendolldesign]

Hey bubula, glad to see you join the conversation!

You bring up good points and I think I have a way to solve them (convex/concave areas). I'm thinking those areas you mention could receive just the outer skin coat and then once the skin is removed and flipped inside out a final thick coat would be applied to those and surrounding areas and then the whole thing would be put back on the mannequin to cure, this time with the already cured silicone skin on the outside (the way it will be once it is done) which will force and mold those areas with the uncured silicone underneath to to retain a perfect shape once removed. It would be a good idea to make sure and reapply a release agent to the mannequin in those areas before this just to make sure no adhesion happens.

I don't think this method is well suited for making a head though, particularly because of all the small and deep convex areas. Fortunately heads are easy to pour or buy already made.

If one wanted to test the effect on a full body then a really small doll (like the 18-20 inch ones) would be perfect, so that one doesn't need to use a whole bunch of silicone to test.

If my reading is correct, opendolldesign hasn't created any dolls yet. Can't rush genius, or if not genius, at least innovation.

I for one think this is a great idea that needs some "fleshing out".

Opendolldesign thanks for your interest in my project. Your idea sounds like something I was originally considering: use a mannequin to create an inverse cast of silicone skin which is then turned inside out and completed with a foam core and a skeleton. Your idea to incorporate a flexible fabric in the skin is a real game changer though.

You already discussed how you would handle concave and convex areas of the skin but I'd like to explore that a bit more. This is what stopped me from going any further down this route when i started conceptualizing.

I'm thinking about places like the ass crack, the outline of the breasts where they meet the chest, anywhere where there is a sharp concave crease. Even if you use less silicone material in those areas, I feel like they will not conform naturally once the skin is turned inside out. Also if you use less silicone in those areas it may weaken them and make them prone to stretching our tearing. Then there's consistency in skin tone and thickness to worry about. Ultimately I think concave areas may be more problematic than convex areas (like nipples as you were saying).

The thing is we don't yet have a working model to test these theories on yet, so these concerns may be all for naught. Silicone is after all a pretty amazing material right? I think the best way to proceed is just to create a head using this method. That way you can test out some of these potential issues on a smaller scale. If it works then you have a perfect head ready to go for when you complete the whole body!

[rubherkitty]

Here's a mesh catsuit. Thank Mannequin Fan.
http://winterfetish.com/catalog/Womens- ... -Cups.html

[Kaiya]

Here's a mesh catsuit. Thank Mannequin Fan.
http://winterfetish.com/catalog/Womens- ... -Cups.html

:O Great find!

[opendolldesign]

Here's a mesh catsuit. Thank Mannequin Fan.
http://winterfetish.com/catalog/Womens- ... -Cups.html

Though this is a lot more expensive it could be better than the Zentai suit because it has contours built in for the curves of a female body.

That may not be an issue though after my design updates a few posts above inspired by bubula's comments. Would need some testing.

[rubherkitty]

I just thought the mesh may allow for better silicone bonding. Trying to pull a tight catsuit over wet silicone will be a mess.

[opendolldesign]

I just thought the mesh may allow for better silicone bonding. Trying to pull a tight catsuit over wet silicone will be a mess.

Yeah I think that will be the most tricky part of this process and it is important that the mannequin have the feet as close together as possible and arms close to the sides to make donning and removing the suit as easy as possible.

[rubherkitty]

Besides being sealed, the MQ joints may have to be epoxied if you don't want the limbs to move when trying to install the suit.

[opendolldesign]

Besides being sealed, the MQ joints may have to be epoxied if you don't want the limbs to move when trying to install the suit.

Good point!

[Jaycent]

Oh... My... Gawd...

Thank you, ODD, for this wonderful post. I look forward to hearing more from you. I'm on a break from my own doll making efforts/experiments due to some other projects I must spend time on, but you've gotten me excited enough to begin thinking about these things again.

Your whole idea of making a body suit is a game changer for me. I was planning on making negative molds for casting an entire doll, but now I'm thinking of going back to a positive. The strengths of this setup is it supports modular design. As you say, if you want a different skin or have made an improvement, it will be a cheaper replacement. It also seems easier to control the thickness of the skin wherever desired, which was a concern to me.

I too am concerned with the convex and concave curves. With what I have in mind, not only will I have problems turning these curves inside out, but the actual body suit will need to be custom to fit. Those Zantai suits will tend to form tents over larger shaped breasts, rather than fit to their contours. I found myself already looking up how to sew custom cat suits while reading through this post. (FYI: http://www.stretchy.org/). But perhaps that netting suit will work too. I will try out your suggested solution of handling sharp curves when I next get back into this, hopefully in a month or so.

I'm interested to hear your take on the skeleton. Did you have something in mind that could hold a pose?

[opendolldesign]

Those Zantai suits will tend to form tents over larger shaped breasts, rather than fit to their contours.

Thanks for posting and getting involved Jaycent! I believe the solution to this was addressed in my reply to bubula above:

I'm thinking those areas you mention [breasts & butt/groin] could receive just the outer skin coat and then once the skin is removed and flipped inside out a final thick coat would be applied to those and surrounding areas and then the whole thing would be put back on the mannequin to cure, this time with the already cured silicone skin on the outside (the way it will be once it is done) which will force and mold those areas with the uncured silicone underneath to to retain a perfect shape once removed. It would be a good idea to make sure and reapply a release agent to the mannequin in those areas before this just to make sure no adhesion happens.

NOTE: This would also make use of the tightness of the skin on the mannequin in that it would compress the uncured silicone through the fabric as it cures.

I found myself already looking up how to sew custom cat suits while reading through this post.

You can order custom size suits to your measurements at no additional cost from http://www.zentai-zentai.com/custom_made.html

I'm interested to hear your take on the skeleton. Did you have something in mind that could hold a pose?

I have done quite a bit of real world testing and and research into making joints that can be adjusted from a hidden area in the neck so that the doll becomes posable or "floppy". I am also experimenting with motorized heads and pelvis for a mechanized doll.

I have been at this for almost 2 years now and have come up with some pretty ingenious solutions for improving doll design. I will be sharing it all, along with photos and video as time permits!

[r363b]

When will you make the doll using your concept? ...Is it weeks or many months from now? Also, please post pictures of your test samples showing the max stretch after the fabric and silicone bonded together. Need to know this for the " non-stretch internal bladder" design to prevent lumps and bumps of the fill material stretching and deforming the look of the doll's silicone skin.

[opendolldesign]

When will you make the doll using your concept?

Probably many months due to budget and time constraints, which is why I finally decided to put my plans up here. I figured someone who had the time, money and motivation is on here and would make use of my plans I gave away for free

... please post pictures of your test samples showing the max stretch after the fabric and silicone bonded together. Need to know this for the " non-stretch internal bladder" design to prevent lumps and bumps of the fill material stretching and deforming the look of the doll's silicone skin.

I planned to add instructions on this along with other revisions to my original post later on but turns out edits on the forum can't be made after a certain amount of time. So I will be making a whole new instructional topic about this method once I complete my first doll.

This is a good point you bring up. I have some pics laying around somewhere but I didn't post them because it is easier and more clear to just explain in words the important considerations for the internal bladder.

It is quite simple really, the trick is you want the bladder to be fairly tight and the fabric to handle most of the stretch so it compresses what ever the filler material is and relieves stress from the rubber coating. The compression makes the sodium polyacrylate fill more realistic in my tests. The best way to do this is to get a body (Zentai) suit that is really small for the size of the doll. That way, when you put it on the mannequin it is stretched almost to the max it can go. Then you can coat it with urethane or silicone to make it thicker and water tight. Adding a compatible lubricant for your rubbers, between the bladder and skin at joints, such as knees and elbows, is advised.

Keep in mind, sodium polyacrylate doesn't create bumps and if you are planning on filling it with foam, ground up foam won't create bumps. You can make it yourself by taking ordinary upholstery foam or carpet underlayment and blending it in a blender. Here is a hoby forum that has some more info on that: http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/3474 Or buy it online by searching for shredded foam filler.

OR

...for more realism as far as weight and density you can buy pre shredded latex foam here: Organic Shredded Latex Foam Rubber